Interesting site. Hearing from people who has believed and “left” works better for me than hearing the views of people who never embraced a faith: people who haven’t experienced this kind of abject and irrational terror. Casting aside the dogmas is never easy, but hearing from others who have reached similar conclusions to yours and being able to nurture from their experience and ideas, certainly offers some comfort and strengthens your position. You stop feeling lost and start feeling liberated.

It doesn’t feel so disturbing when all your doctrine-powered mental alarms start ringing with every step you take away from the absurd picture they draw in your mind.

Sorry for the rusty english. I read understand it perfectly, but I don’t get to actually use it that often.

Wives submit to your husband
I will not permit a women to teach a man

In the first century and later this was typical and it was sometimes worse
and now christians have a 4-7%(depending on denomination) higher rate of divorce then agnostic atheists

masturbation(forbidden in many christian denominations)
Has been linked to a lowering of prostate cancer in men
95% of men do it(goes it to show you how insane religion is)
recommended by the UN for both male and female youths to prevent premartial sex

Women
Prevents menstrual cramps
Stress reduction(both genders)

for a better explanation
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,401722,00.html

I recently just did a paper on how Christianity developed(haven’t turned it in yet)
I analyzed the gospel of mark in regards to how Christianity formed
It encourages credulity which is harmful in just about every way possible

All Christians agree that by the dying, and rising again of Jesus Christ we are put right with God, and with each other. We think that God loves us, and that in Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself.

The rub here is that not all people of faith agree concerning the precise mechanics of all this. And, the church through the years has come up with differing analogies, and theories to explain the atonement of Christ.

It seems to me that all analogies are going to seem incomplete, and crude in comparision to the reality itself.

I think that part of the difficulty is that we can’t really conceptualize, and fully understand the depth of evil, and injustice in the world that necessitates this kind of drastic action. It’s about something much deeper than simply forgivin your kids because they forgot to take out the trash, or lied about a bad grade at school.

My view of the atonement is that in some mysterious way our nature in unity with Christ, is being completely changed to reflect His love, and grace. We are being enabled to share in the life of God. It’s about more than forgiveness, although that’s important, too.

At any rate, I don’t feel that I need to have complete understanding of all this to decide to jump into that “life-giving stream,” speaking metaphorically here, of course.

Paul, I also want to share with you about this book I’ve recently read by Timothy Keller, “The Reason for God.” Belief in an Age of Skepticism.

He actually addresses this very issue, and tons of other interesting things. Now not all Christians will agree with his explanations, but I can tell you this, the book provides plenty of food for thought.

Maybe you would be interested to check it out. Appreciate your honesty, and sharing all your thinking with me, too.

thanks for the spirit of your post. i know you are very sincere in your beliefs as we once were.

the question i came to ask about the redemption story which you beautifully laid out is WHY?

as a father of 4 beautiful but flawed children (which is all part of being human), I never felt the need to have them slaughter the cat or dog and spill blood all over the house in order for me to forgive them. they simply had to come and say ‘dad, i’m sorry.’ i could pretty much tell if they were sincere or not.

i also didn’t feel the need to go become one of my children and then more or less commit suicide to myself and shed my own blood so that i can make the simple decision to forgive my children. remember, god would have created the rules. why make it so bloody and ritualistic?

the reality is, you’re buying into the bronze age beliefs of a tribe of middle easterners and their rituals and superstitions. i’m sure you don’t believe we have to perform rain dances in order to get rain as the american indians once believed. why do you subscribe to these ancient superstitions?

however, that being said, the modern day christian god is a lot more like god would be if we created him today vs. 5,000 years ago. he’s a loving father in heaven who loves us, forgives us when we ask, etc. he’s not a tribal war god as yahweh was.

of course, since christianity is birth out of the superstitions of 5,000 years ago, its creators 2,000 years ago did do a remarkable job of working it out so we elimated a lot of those rituals. the jesus story was the ultimate stroke of genius.

now if christians just focus on their new definition of god and what they believe about him and eliminate all the history of how he got this definition, it would actually be a pretty decent faith focused on love, compassion, kindness, etc.

respectfully,
paul

I don’t want to come across as an adversary. Please bear with me. But, this is not how I would interpret the Christian story..

I’m not ashamed to be human. I think we’re fearfully, and wonderfully made, a blessing.

But, the paradox of this is that in some measure we have also broken, and fallen. It’s not necessary to debate about original sin, I think.

Just look at the world around.

I can examine my own life. I hurt the people I love the most without even trying, Quester. We are alienated from each other. Look at how people respond to one another even on these blogs, with scorn, and unkindness. Often, we want to drive people away, and judge them as having malevolent motives for simply holding to other opinions.

The Christian story, to me, is that God loves us so much that He fully entered into human life, and suffering, that He absorbed the consequence of evil, and sin into Himself, so that we could fully share in His life, and be radically changed, authentically human.

I am not sitting around waiting for God to make the world better. My faith calls me to participate in His redeemptive work, and in the kingdom in the here, and now. I work in the human service field, Questor, because I really do see people of infinite worth and value apart from their performance. I care.

IMO, God does not want us to sit around as Christians mired in endless guilt, and feelings of worthlessness. In truth we have a freedom in our unity with Christ. There is no condemnation in Him.

It is a huge relief to finally admit that no version of the Christian story makes any sense, that this is not a fallen world, that there is no one who is going to make things better if we don’t, and that there is no shame in being human.

It sounds like you were under a terrible burden. Atheism must seem like a huge relief in comparison.

It’s when I began to feel responsible for others’ eternal destinies that I found myself staying up nights, contemplating suicide, feeling useless and depressed, poring over the Bible and Biblical commentaries, going through my theology textbooks, looking at the world around me, and trying to learn everything I could about God and God’s will. There were so many people who did not deserve torment, but I could not figure out how to give assurance they wouldn’t receive it anyway, not with any honesty. My inability to find any clear and consistent message about God’s will near killed me. How dare I call myself Christian, let alone a pastor? It took years before I admitted to myself that there is no evidence for a God, and less for one who wills something for us.

Josh, I understand the torment you felt too well. I felt it most of my life. Crediting God with every good thing and blaming myself for every bad, how else could I feel? These days, when I find myself following those old worn paths of self-destructive thought, I find putting on some headphones and listening to my favourite music helps a lot. Cheapest and best self-mediacation I’ve found yet. Releasing the fear of hell made a huge difference in my life, but old habits are hard to break. I wish you the best.

I might add (though it is probably apparent) that my idea in this post was to just communicate what was going through my mind – in its rawest form – regardless of mental illness or whatever that may have been involved. I want people to see how the ideas they share can affect someone else in a completely different way than they may affect them. In other words, what may seem like a harmless teaching to 9 children may be devastatingly disastrous to the 10th person. It is therefore essential that we do our best to make sure that what we teach is accurate and true before we begin teaching it and regardless of whether we like it or not, because then the effects in the lives of others are independent of our own claimed authority on the subject.

Thanks for your thoughts. They are appreciated.

Thank God you are doing much better. Is it possible that you may have been struggling with a touch of OCD that fundamentalist Christianity was helping to exacerbate? Hope you are not offended by me suggesting this.

If things are still bothering you, there’s certainly no shame, or harm in getting this checked out, is there?

Deep peace, and blessings to you, Josh. Thanks for sharing so honestly.