It would make me happier if you would directly address my arguments rather than speculating on my intentions and tossing out unsubstantiated affirmations. Is that too much to ask?

Tim Keller wrote: “Here Luther says that failure to believe that God accepts us fully in Christ—and to look to something else for our salvation—is a failure to keep the first commandment; namely, having no other gods before him. To try to earn your own salvation through works-righteousness is breaking the first commandment. Then he says that we cannot truly keep any of the other laws unless we keep the first law—against idolatry and works-righteousness. Thus beneath any particular sin is this sin of rejecting Christ-salvation and indulging in self-salvation.”

I think that your intelligence is your idol. You ask a lot of very good questions, but I detect it is tinged with a self suffiency in your mind.

Fair enough. I’ve nothing I particularly need you to address, but I assume you’re here for a reason. Is there anything in particular you’d like to discuss?

I’m not overlooking the half empty part. I just don’t dismiss everything because I don’t understand or even cringe over part of it. The Christians I respect all have ‘issues’ with the half empty side. I don’t believe in inerrancy – that is how I reconcile it, though I continue to earnestly seek for understanding on those matters. Those that do believe in inerrancy submit to God’s superiority – that the Creator has superior perspective over the creation. I respect that now but I didn’t before.

I am hearing the frustration of your experiences coming through. I was going to respond to your other points, but I think a long debate will probably waste a lot of time and accomplish nothing. If there is anything specific you want me to address, I will. But I cannot be an apologist for the entire Bible because I also have my doubts of its inerrancy. However, those doubts don’t preclude me from being Christian or to have been blessed with the Holy Spirit. I wish that upon everyone.

You do not like the images of the Christian God that are in your mind, put there by others or created by yourself. You are obviously confident that the image you have is reasonable, derived from much thought and experience. I think you are also open minded enough to know you could have it wrong – like the state of science before the onset of relativity and quantum theory. New data can break down old theories and cause a re-think of our very foundations.

That is my purpose in even responding. I will probably not nudge anyone towards God through debate. But I will try to clarify as best I can why the many sticking points that ‘de-converters’ bring up no longer keep me apart from God. Hopefully, that might soften that mental image. Though in the end, speaking as a former skeptic, if there is a God, He did create us. Can the creation have superior perspective over the Creator?

When it came to me to look at the half full glass instead of the half empty one, my path to conversion came quickly.

Maybe you need to stop focusing on one half of the glass at a time and try looking at the whole thing at once?

Fair enough. A third of those times took place in the book of Deuteronomy, which is the only place I thought the phrase appeared in the Old Testement, to be quoted by Jesus in the Gospels (which accounts for another four of your 23). Another 5 of the twenty-three seem to have nothing to do with loving God, but I fully admit to glossing over the remaining 5 instances that this phrase appeared, outside of Deuteronomy and the Gospels.

Not a really impressive count for an overarching central theme, but if you count “fear” and “obey” as synonyms of “love”, you’ll have a solid argument (if a very sad idea of what love is).

They all put God first, above golden idols, above wealth or fame, above their own well being

I conceded that much (#3 in post 20), but still argue that fear was much more the motivation than love for many of those characters.

Do you see no consistency in actions/attitude between Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Daniel, etc…?

I do. Do you see no inconsistencies in how God treated them? Punishing David’s children for his actions, deciding at the last minute that Moses’ most recent sin is unforgiveable, completely messing around with Abraham and all his descendents? Declaring Noah, Abraham and Moses righteous, and their enemies unrighteous, before giving any guidelines of righteousness to anyone? Completely jerking Saul around before deciding that kingship is a good idea and giving it to David?

There is plenty of consistency in that people try to appease God, I grant you that. There is even some consistency on how. God’s responses, however, vary arbitrarily, leaving the Bible to read like an extended parable for an abusive relationship. But I doubt that’s the central commonality you’re reaching for.

What does it mean to love God? That is a good question. What does it mean to love your spouse (or significant other)? There are a lot of answers to that. There is no formula.

No formula is fine when dealing with a spouse who can give feedback. But when one person loves God by stoning homosexuals to death and another loves God by feeding the homeless, and one of the two may be damned to eternal torment (and both think its the other), a little bit of clarity would be nice.

When it came to me to look at the half full glass instead of the half empty one, my path to conversion came quickly.

My problem is that the cup is not half full and half empty; my problem is that the cup is half full of nourishing water, and half full of sickening poison (I feel I am being generous in my proportions, here, but see no profit in being mean spirited and thus will grant you half). Neither positive thinking nor a healthy outlook will allow me to only drink the healthy bits were I once again to lift that glass to my lips.

There are numerous, wonderful stories in the Bible. There are numerous characters.

I grant you both points, but prefer the works of Shakespeare for either quality. I don’t worship nor love the Bard, either. Nor do I see a need to.

But as to your claim of inconsistency, can you point to any two characters whose relationship with God is inconsistent with the others?

Not easily, I admit. I mean, Paul’s views were inconsistent with Peter’s and Jesus’ was inconsistent with Moses’, but to select two characters whose relationship was inconsistent with all the others? I suppose I’ll have to go with Adam and Eve.

I will respond to your other note tomorrow

Pleasant dreams.

Love the Lord your God – I think it is far more than just two verses. The explicit phrase ‘with all your heart’ turns up 23 times with some slight variances in the surrounding context. Moreover, looking implicitly, what books of the Bible do not have as a central theme the struggle to obey God? Do you see no consistency in actions/attitude between Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Daniel, etc…? They all put God first, above golden idols, above wealth or fame, above their own well being (some exceptions with David, for which he suffered).

What does it mean to love God? That is a good question. What does it mean to love your spouse (or significant other)? There are a lot of answers to that. There is no formula. The above persons can serve as examples, but I think there is some personal variance as well. I have my regimen that feels right for me but I do hope to learn and grow in that respect just as I have learned and grown in my marriage. What I can say with certainty is that if anything else in your life takes first place – that which should be Gods – be it money, fame, career (this was my God before conversion), sex, drugs, even family or your marriage, then you are not loving God with all your heart and soul.

I would be happy to delve more into the inconsistencies that you see if you have specifics? But, from my own experience, you can go on and on debating inconsistencies or contradictions in the Bible. As long as I focused on that, I never would have become a believer. When it came to me to look at the half full glass instead of the half empty one, my path to conversion came quickly.

There are numerous, wonderful stories in the Bible. There are numerous characters. That is the half full part. But as to your claim of inconsistency, can you point to any two characters whose relationship with God is inconsistent with the others?

(I will respond to your other note tomorrow)

Where do you get this from? An appetite for the Bible? No character in the Bible had a copy of the Bible. No, what you see in the Old Testament is a fearful seeking of explanations of what is happening and cries to God to make things better (often, but not always, partnered with stern declarations explaining why they are suffering, and calls to repent particular sins). In the New Testament, you have quotes of the Old (usually with serious misunderstandings about poetic devices, and occasional mistranslations), and prayers telling God the reasons He has for what is happening.

3) There is a change of heart to rectify any priorities that have been put before God and a move away from behaviors that are sinful.

That, I will grant you. Though which behaviours change drastically from Old to New, and have changed several times since. Are you familiar with the sin of usury? The motivations for this changing also changes.

4) There is love and interest for people. There is the desire and need for fellowship.

I’m going to tie these two together, as they are strongly related. I will also grant that they are consistent themes in the Bible.

Where does that come from if not from God?

Let me list some possibilities:

i) Later writers of the books in the Bible had earlier books to reference, and made certain that their writings were consistent with ones previous.

ii) When it came to choosing what books were to be included in the Bible, only books that were consistent on certain themes were chosen.

iii) Themes about obeying God as the utmost priority gave power to those writing the Bible (who thus provided instruction on what “obeying God” meant).

iv) Themes about interpersonal relationships and seeking fellowship are common in every single story ever written. Seriously, name me one fiction book that doesn’t have these themes. We are herd animals with limited empathy. Our stories are all about defining that herd, and increasing that empathy (at least, within the defined herd).

I hope this helps.