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	<title>Comments on: Reasons for my de-conversion (4 of 4)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://de-conversion.com/2009/10/27/reasons-for-my-de-conversion-4/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/10/27/reasons-for-my-de-conversion-4/</link>
	<description>Resources for skeptical, de-converting, or former Christians......</description>
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		<title>By: Phil Stilwell</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/10/27/reasons-for-my-de-conversion-4/#comment-40374</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Stilwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 06:34:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3297#comment-40374</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your comments, Tom. 
If you have any further questions, please ask. 
Good luck in your journey. 

-phil</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comments, Tom.<br />
If you have any further questions, please ask.<br />
Good luck in your journey. </p>
<p>-phil</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/10/27/reasons-for-my-de-conversion-4/#comment-40373</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 06:24:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3297#comment-40373</guid>
		<description>Hi Phil.
I&#039;m 45 years old.  I&#039;ve been a &quot;born again christian&quot; since the age of 4.  It has been the christian apologists that have actually brought me to this point of seriously questioning my &quot;faith&quot;.

I&#039;ve discovered that life did differentiate through evolution on this planet.  The ignorance, denial &amp; dishonesty of so many creationists has led me to question the very core of christianity.  It seems as if empirical data &amp; critical thinking are the enemies of christianity.

I&#039;ve befriended many atheists &amp; agnostics.  Many of them are de-converted christians.  The more I look at christianity, with a critical mind the more it looks like it&#039;s a construct of man, not God.

You are very coherent, articulate &amp; concise this document.  Thank you.
Tom</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Phil.<br />
I&#8217;m 45 years old.  I&#8217;ve been a &#8220;born again christian&#8221; since the age of 4.  It has been the christian apologists that have actually brought me to this point of seriously questioning my &#8220;faith&#8221;.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve discovered that life did differentiate through evolution on this planet.  The ignorance, denial &amp; dishonesty of so many creationists has led me to question the very core of christianity.  It seems as if empirical data &amp; critical thinking are the enemies of christianity.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve befriended many atheists &amp; agnostics.  Many of them are de-converted christians.  The more I look at christianity, with a critical mind the more it looks like it&#8217;s a construct of man, not God.</p>
<p>You are very coherent, articulate &amp; concise this document.  Thank you.<br />
Tom</p>
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		<title>By: Quester</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/10/27/reasons-for-my-de-conversion-4/#comment-39581</link>
		<dc:creator>Quester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 00:03:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3297#comment-39581</guid>
		<description>Joshua,

16- You have not proven that there are not, or even that we are not, spiritual creatures- only that we can  not comprehend such, were they to exist.

17- How do they contradict each other?

25- &quot;There is that which is independent of time, upon which time is causally dependent.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joshua,</p>
<p>16- You have not proven that there are not, or even that we are not, spiritual creatures- only that we can  not comprehend such, were they to exist.</p>
<p>17- How do they contradict each other?</p>
<p>25- &#8220;There is that which is independent of time, upon which time is causally dependent.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: SnugglyBuffalo</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/10/27/reasons-for-my-de-conversion-4/#comment-39580</link>
		<dc:creator>SnugglyBuffalo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 23:52:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3297#comment-39580</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think it&#039;s really impossible for time to have a &quot;beginning,&quot; but to ask what happened before that is illogical. To ask what happened before the Big Bang (assuming that this is when time &quot;started&quot;) would be akin to asking what is colder than absolute zero.

As for the whole dimensions thing, I&#039;m not sure that really can be used as justification. There may be dimensions higher than time, but can those dimensions exist without time already existing? You can&#039;t have 3-dimensions without already having 2. Similarly, I wouldn&#039;t think you could have the 5th dimension without the 4th (time).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s really impossible for time to have a &#8220;beginning,&#8221; but to ask what happened before that is illogical. To ask what happened before the Big Bang (assuming that this is when time &#8220;started&#8221;) would be akin to asking what is colder than absolute zero.</p>
<p>As for the whole dimensions thing, I&#8217;m not sure that really can be used as justification. There may be dimensions higher than time, but can those dimensions exist without time already existing? You can&#8217;t have 3-dimensions without already having 2. Similarly, I wouldn&#8217;t think you could have the 5th dimension without the 4th (time).</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/10/27/reasons-for-my-de-conversion-4/#comment-39576</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 23:05:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3297#comment-39576</guid>
		<description>Joshua---

You are right-----it is all speculation and conjecture.  But it was fun discussing it for a while.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joshua&#8212;</p>
<p>You are right&#8212;&#8211;it is all speculation and conjecture.  But it was fun discussing it for a while.  <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/10/27/reasons-for-my-de-conversion-4/#comment-39574</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 22:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3297#comment-39574</guid>
		<description>So we sort of agree, but you are trying to keep open the possibility for an understandable action preceding the ability for a sequence of events as we know it even if by metaphysical means. You want to keep open the possibility for God to be involved - which is understandable.

That&#039;s fine, but realize you are just inventing ideas or taking other ideas invented by others... since it is all speculation anyway :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So we sort of agree, but you are trying to keep open the possibility for an understandable action preceding the ability for a sequence of events as we know it even if by metaphysical means. You want to keep open the possibility for God to be involved &#8211; which is understandable.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s fine, but realize you are just inventing ideas or taking other ideas invented by others&#8230; since it is all speculation anyway <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/10/27/reasons-for-my-de-conversion-4/#comment-39571</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 22:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3297#comment-39571</guid>
		<description>Here is one scientist&#039;s argument:

&quot;By analyzing the meaning of time I argue, without endorsing operationalism, that time is necessarily related to physical systems which can serve as clocks. This leads to a version of relationism about time which entails that there is no time &#039;before&#039; the universe. Three notions of metaphysical &#039;time&#039; (associated, respectively, with time as a mathematical concept, substantivalism, and modal relationism) which might support the idea of time &#039;before&#039; the universe are discussed. I argue that there are no good reasons to believe that metaphysical &#039;time&#039; can be identified with what we ordinarily call time. I also briefly review and criticize the idea of time &#039;before&#039; the big bang, associated with some recent speculative models in modern cosmology, and I argue that if the big bang model is a (roughly) correct description of our universe, then the best current answer to the question in the title is that time did have a beginning&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is one scientist&#8217;s argument:</p>
<p>&#8220;By analyzing the meaning of time I argue, without endorsing operationalism, that time is necessarily related to physical systems which can serve as clocks. This leads to a version of relationism about time which entails that there is no time &#8216;before&#8217; the universe. Three notions of metaphysical &#8216;time&#8217; (associated, respectively, with time as a mathematical concept, substantivalism, and modal relationism) which might support the idea of time &#8216;before&#8217; the universe are discussed. I argue that there are no good reasons to believe that metaphysical &#8216;time&#8217; can be identified with what we ordinarily call time. I also briefly review and criticize the idea of time &#8216;before&#8217; the big bang, associated with some recent speculative models in modern cosmology, and I argue that if the big bang model is a (roughly) correct description of our universe, then the best current answer to the question in the title is that time did have a beginning&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/10/27/reasons-for-my-de-conversion-4/#comment-39570</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 21:59:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3297#comment-39570</guid>
		<description>Joshua---

There are many scientists who believe that time had a beginning.  Simply google it on the internet.  Scientists say there is an end to the Universe.  The question is always &quot;what is beyond that&quot;?  The problem is one cannot describe what was before time without using the word &quot;before&quot; because we don&#039;t live in other dimensions.

I could continue to argue the point---but I&#039;ll leave that to the scientists.  :&gt;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joshua&#8212;</p>
<p>There are many scientists who believe that time had a beginning.  Simply google it on the internet.  Scientists say there is an end to the Universe.  The question is always &#8220;what is beyond that&#8221;?  The problem is one cannot describe what was before time without using the word &#8220;before&#8221; because we don&#8217;t live in other dimensions.</p>
<p>I could continue to argue the point&#8212;but I&#8217;ll leave that to the scientists.  :&gt;)</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/10/27/reasons-for-my-de-conversion-4/#comment-39568</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 21:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3297#comment-39568</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Time and space are both infinite.&lt;em&gt;

To quote the master of reason himself,

&quot;Then this moment could have never happened!&quot; - WLC, said with slightly cheesy, all-knowing smile.

I personally just don&#039;t think:

a) It matters
b) We can comprehend it

It&#039;s not like natural selection would equip us with ability to understand these things. Nobody&#039;s understanding of the origin of the universe or what time is has helped them reproduce and survive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Time and space are both infinite.</em><em></p>
<p>To quote the master of reason himself,</p>
<p>&#8220;Then this moment could have never happened!&#8221; &#8211; WLC, said with slightly cheesy, all-knowing smile.</p>
<p>I personally just don&#8217;t think:</p>
<p>a) It matters<br />
b) We can comprehend it</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not like natural selection would equip us with ability to understand these things. Nobody&#8217;s understanding of the origin of the universe or what time is has helped them reproduce and survive.</em></p>
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		<title>By: LeoPardus</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/10/27/reasons-for-my-de-conversion-4/#comment-39567</link>
		<dc:creator>LeoPardus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 21:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3297#comment-39567</guid>
		<description>Time and space are both infinite. End of the debate. .. Well there was no debate to start with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Time and space are both infinite. End of the debate. .. Well there was no debate to start with.</p>
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