The myth of the virgin birth of Jesus

November 1, 2009 at 12:48 pm 51 comments

We have spent a considerable time on this blog, addressing Biblical myths. HeIsSailing wrote on several myths of the Bible including the Leviathan, the creation story, the tower of Babel, the origins of languages, and the Crucifixion story. I compiled an entry on the Exodus and wrote a short blog on the myth of the devil.  Richard most recently wrote on the Apocalypse.

An interesting myth that is widely embraced by the Christian church today is the story of the impregnation of a young Jewish woman by YHWH 2000 years ago.  The Apostles Creed includes the lines:

Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary

There are several issues with the story of the virgin birth.  The first, of course, is the parallel of this story with many other such conceptions of “gods” over the course of history.  I read one Christian’s rebuttal this argument which stated that this is in fact more of a declaration of its truth since the devil always tries to counterfeit truth.  Well, he had quite a head start on this one.

The second is the genesis of the virgin birth story itself.  The first person to write about an individual named Jesus was Paul, the Apostle.  In his letters, there is no mention of the virgin birth of Jesus.  One would think if this was such an important doctrine to be embraced as a core belief of Christianity, it would  be trumpeted by Christianity’s greatest evangelist.

Most scholars believe that Mark was the first gospel to be written.  Mark seem to take Paul’s theology of the Christ and create a biography of his life paralleling many of his stories after Old Testament tradition (see DagoodS’s most excellent commentary on the Gospel of Mark for more details).  The Gospel of Mark also does not contain any references to the virgin birth of Christ.  The only Gospels containing references to the virgin birth of Jesus are Matthew and Luke, which are generally believed to be based on the Gospel of Mark.

Lastly and probably the greatest issue of the virgin birth story is that it is based on what many scholars believe to be a mistranslation of Isaiah 7:14.  Matthew quotes the Septuagint (the Greek translation used at the time of the writing of the gospels) which states “virgin.”  However, if one was to go back to the original text, it actually reads “young woman.”  One rebuttal to this I read stated that in those days “young woman” and “virgin” were synonymous terms.  I’m not sure that is a valid argument.

In my opinion, religious writings claiming the miraculous generally fall into the category of myths.  The challenge we have is separating out the philosophical nuggets contained in many of these writings as they are so often wrapped in an unbelievable package.

- The de-Convert

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Whacked Bible Contradictions: 2 Whacked Bible Contradictions: 3

51 Comments Add your own

  • 1. Lucian  |  November 1, 2009 at 1:38 pm

    Mark was based on Peter; it was Luke that was based on Paul (by its opening of the Christian message to a Gentile audience: genealogy going back to Adam, not just to Abraham; the mentioning of the 70 Apostles, paralleling the 70 nations of the world, etc).

    I’m not sure if you understand the difference between an epistle (written for a certain very specific purpose), and a Gospel.

    In the LXX it’s virgin, not young woman.

  • 2. The de-Convert  |  November 1, 2009 at 1:53 pm

    Lucian,

    The epistles of Paul were written to young churches and contained basic teaching of their beliefs (such as salvation, etc.). Seems appropriate to include a doctrine that is core to Christianity.

    Do your research. The gospel of Mark was most likely written prior to Peter’s epistles.

    … and yes the LXX says “virgin.” That was my point but it is a mistranslation of the original text.

    Paul

  • 3. Lucian  |  November 1, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    The gospel of Mark was most likely written prior to Peter’s epistles.

    So? (What has this got to do with anything?)

    Seems appropriate to include a doctrine that is core to Christianity.

    No. What’s proper was for him to defend his views against the Judaizers (who didn’t have a problem with the virgin birth).

  • 4. Joshua  |  November 1, 2009 at 4:20 pm

    One rebuttal to this I read stated that in those days “young woman” and “virgin” were synonymous terms. I’m not sure that is a valid argument.

    The key here to realize, in my mind, is the stakes based upon such a small change of interpretation. A slight shift in understanding about a tiny word can change one’s entire view of the entire cosmos. Hmmmm.

    That is what I never got while in church: the massive stakes (eternity, ones understanding of God, etc.) all based upon such slight changes in interpretation of one tiny word…

  • 5. The de-Convert  |  November 1, 2009 at 5:46 pm

    Lucian,

    You said the Mark was based on Peter so if Mark preceded Peter, how can this be possible?

    Are you so accustomed to believing the circular reasoning and dismissing facts that you can’t comprehend simple logic?

    Paul

  • 6. HeIsSailing  |  November 1, 2009 at 5:52 pm

    Paul asks:

    You said the Mark was based on Peter so if Mark preceded Peter, how can this be possible?

    I am certain that Lucian is referring to the tradition, started by Eusebius (quoting a ‘Papias’) that, on the authority of an “elder”, Mark had been the interpreter of Peter, and wrote down accurately, though not in order, the teaching of Peter – and this became the Gospel of Mark. I don’t think he is referring to Peter’s Epistles.

  • 7. The de-Convert  |  November 1, 2009 at 5:57 pm

    Oh ok. Got it. Makes sense now. Thanks.

    I’m becoming very interested in the time line and development of the New Testament and the beliefs of Christianity. From this side of the fence, I’m extremely impressed as to the genius of it all. Wish I had more time on my hands to dig into all these issues. Guess retirement can’t come soon enough :)

  • 8. Lucian  |  November 1, 2009 at 6:06 pm

    I was refering to Peter the man, not his books. (Unless you believe that Peter the fisherman was mute as the fish he was fishing, never said a word to anyone his entire life, never went anywhere to preach the Gsopel, and then wrote a few pages shortly before he died).

    As for the connection between Luke and Paul, I hope we agree at least on that (since it’s obvious even from the texts themselves).

  • 9. The de-Convert  |  November 1, 2009 at 6:25 pm

    Well since the only written documents we had at the time Mark wrote his gospel were the epistles of Paul, I think it’s more likely that Mark had those as a reference.

    Paul first mentions Peter, James, and John; that Jesus ate with sinners; that he appointed disciples; that he was persecuted by the Pharisees; last supper; crucifixion; etc. There are no other known documents pre-dating Paul’s letters that contain these stories.

    Of course Mark could have gotten them from the same “tradition” that Paul had but it’s not a stretch for one to conclude that maybe Paul was the originator of these stories.

  • 10. Joshua  |  November 2, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    When I was at Moody Bible Institute, I remember sitting down with a prof and proposing this question:

    Kingly heritage is passed through the male in traditional Jewish culture (just look at the OT). So then, how can Jesus be the rightful heir to David’s throne through a woman?

    At that point you can’t say he was an heir through Joseph, because he was not actually Joseph’s son!

    He basically told me that if that was a problem for me, I should probably go to a different school.

    The virgin birth is only the beginning of the problems!

  • 11. Shadowfx  |  November 2, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    I’m not sure how he came up with it but I’ve heard a sermon that said that Mary was of the house of David too. But I just double checked matthew and luke and they both describe the line of joseph.

  • 12. Joshua  |  November 2, 2009 at 4:57 pm

    “I’ve heard a sermon that said that Mary was of the house of David too.”

    Yeah, but the point is that even if she was, the heir is supposed to come through a male.

    But God’s ways are higher than ours…

  • 13. The de-Convert  |  November 2, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    I’m not sure how he came up with it but I’ve heard a sermon that said that Mary was of the house of David too. But I just double checked matthew and luke and they both describe the line of joseph.

    Shadowfx,

    Why then do you think they are so different?

    http://www.theology.edu/ap10.htm

    Paul

  • 14. Lucian  |  November 2, 2009 at 7:30 pm

    Joshua,

    You don’t have to be someone’s biological father or son to be his father or son. It was true in the past, and it still holds true today.

    de-convert,

    if Mark and John would’ve bothered to write Jesus’ genealogy, I’m sure we would’ve had not two, but four different lists, given the polygamy and easy-divorce of Judaism (changed by Christ).

    —————
    BTW, don’t You think it’s really pathetic how people saying John invented Jesus’ divinity “forget” that his Gospel isn’t even the one describing His virgin birth, but that it’s TWO wholly different Gospels that actually do that?

  • 15. Roy  |  November 2, 2009 at 8:21 pm

    if Mark and John would’ve bothered to write Jesus’ genealogy, I’m sure we would’ve had not two, but four different lists, given the polygamy and easy-divorce of Judaism (changed by Christ).

    What do polygamy and divorce have to do with it? Everybody has exactly one father and one mother, unless you happen to have been immaculately conceived in which case you would have one holy sperm cell and one mother. If the bible is in fact perfectly inerrant as some Christians claim, then if there had been four different genealogies they would all necessarily be the same. Period.

  • 16. Roy  |  November 2, 2009 at 8:25 pm

    And Jesus did not change the laws of Judaism with regard to polygamy, marriage, divorce, or any other topic that I am aware of. He was never involved with politics to my knowledge.

  • 17. Shadowfx  |  November 2, 2009 at 8:25 pm

    The de-Convert,

    Thanks for the link. I had never examined either genology all that closely. To find out that they are different is very interesting. I think this must be where the man giving the sermon on Mary’s geneology got it. But from the text, it seems clear that this is Joseph’s geneology.

    Josh,

    I see your point, but I to me if he was from the house of David and not necessaryly his hier, that is good enough for me. But, the fact that they trace the geneology of Joseph and not Mary is strange amd the fact that the two are different is even stranger.

    So the question then becomes, what did the early christians actually believe. Was their faith founded on Jesus as born of the holy spirit, or is that embellishment from a later time.

  • 18. Roy  |  November 2, 2009 at 8:31 pm

    And he wasn’t a lawyer either.

  • 19. Roy  |  November 2, 2009 at 9:09 pm

    You know, if you really start thinking deeply about this whole issue of the virgin birth and whether such a belief is critical to Christian faith, you start to realize that it is just pointless to be concerned about it.

    If there could be an immaculate conception, why not an immaculate gene splice? Is there even a “god gene” that somehow made Jesus genetically different from the rest of us? If so, then why were the rest of us not just given the same “god gene” from the start rather than going through this convoluted process? If so, was Jesus *really* human? The more you think about it, the less sense mainstream Christian doctrine makes as it has evolved to date.

  • 20. Lucian  |  November 2, 2009 at 9:39 pm

    What do polygamy and divorce have to do with it? Everybody has exactly one father and one mother

    …unless Your parents get divorced, and then You end up having either two fathers, or two mothers…

  • 21. Roy  |  November 2, 2009 at 10:07 pm

    I’m talking biology here, which is not changed by legal transactions. If the intention of the gospel writers was to establish a biological linkage from person X to person Y, then divorce or polygamy would be irrelevant. Certainly if these writers were holy spirit inspired then it shouldn’t have been a problem for all of the genealogies to match up, no?

  • 22. Roy  |  November 2, 2009 at 10:09 pm

    My point is that involvement of the infalible all-knowing holy spirit would make getting the biological chain written down correctly a breeze, no?

  • 23. Roy  |  November 2, 2009 at 10:20 pm

    To take the logic a step further, if “God” could dictate his infallible inerrant word into a book, why not just go ahead and implant it infallibly and inerrantly into everybodies brains?

  • 24. Roy  |  November 2, 2009 at 10:22 pm

    If upon becoming a Christian, we are possessed by the same holy spirit who presumably wrote the book, then why do we still need to worry about reading the book?

  • 25. Lucian  |  November 2, 2009 at 10:23 pm

    If the intention of the gospel writers was to establish a biological linkage from person X to person Y

    If.

  • 26. Roy  |  November 2, 2009 at 10:29 pm

    So what other intent would make sense? To give a random list of people?

  • 27. Roy  |  November 2, 2009 at 10:32 pm

    And further, if you have the omnicience and inerrancy of the holy spirit at your disposal, why not go ahead and list the chain that is meaningful, namely the biological one?

  • 28. Roy  |  November 2, 2009 at 10:38 pm

    Thinking about this a little more, why not just go ahead an have immaculately conceived twins (boy and girl), put them on an ark with a pair of every animal, flood the rest of the world, and then let these god-people repopulate the world with perfect people? Now that would be a workable plan. No?

  • 29. Roy  |  November 2, 2009 at 10:41 pm

    All of these are of course rhetorical questions designed to point out how absurd mainstream Christian doctrine is. No answers are necessary because the questions are as absurd as the doctrine.

  • 30. Lucian  |  November 3, 2009 at 12:14 am

    why not go ahead and list the chain that is meaningful, namely the biological one?

    Why? All you have to do is link by way of descent (whether biological or legal, it doesn’t matter) Christ to king David.

  • 31. Roy  |  November 3, 2009 at 1:27 am

    Yes it does matter. Biological has a basis in reality, legal does not. Legal systems are man made constructs. I am interested in the genetics of this presumed god-man.

  • 32. Roy  |  November 3, 2009 at 1:50 am

    Look Lucian, the claim of most Christians is that his mother was a virgin ok? To say that in this situation it doesn’t matter whether we are talking legally or biologically just doesn’t make sense. Biology says that to make an embryo you need a sperm cell with 23 chromosomes and an egg cell with the same. Somehow in this instance presumably this law of biology was somehow circumvented. There is a missing sperm cell that needs to be accounted for and legalities are not going to solve the problem. Did this divine sperm cell make the child some sort of super-human? If so, then the game was rigged. Jesus wasn’t human, so he was not playing by the same rules we are playing by and therefore we shouldn’t be blamed for not being perfect like he was. Is there a separate spiritual element to a human that transcends biological factors? If so, then why the need for a virgin birth? The perfect god-spirit substitute for the imperfect human-spirit would be injected independently of the genetics. Again if this were so, we would hardly be to blame for not getting the perfect god spirit rather than the defective human one. Either way you go, immaculate conception or not, the doctrine of Jesus’ being executed to somehow pay for our sins as presented by mainstream Christianity is absurd. BTW, Christ was not his name. His name was Yeshua Ben Yosef.

  • 33. Roy  |  November 3, 2009 at 2:14 am

    And let’s be honest. The *only* reason people believe nonsense like a virgin birth is because (1) they were taught that it was true when they were children and (2) they were told that if they didn’t believe it they would be punished forever. It’s really hard to shake beliefs that are formed that way, so anybody who is here struggling with it, my heart goes out to you. Once you get over it, your mind is freed to seek out the real truth, whatever it is. What a blessing that is.

  • 34. Lucian  |  November 4, 2009 at 10:23 pm

    Roy,

    what matters to you is relatively unimportant here; the point of the Gospels was to show that Christ was an heir or descendant of King David, according to Jewish Law and custom.

    Cells and chromosomes are made of atoms: plenty of which are to be found in a human body. (And Christ’s body was taken from his mother, it was not made out of nothing: it was our fallen and mortal human nature that He took upon Himself and redeemed it, otherwise His whole effort would’ve been meaningless to us, as You Yourself realised. He was not a stranger to temptation, as is evident from the temptation in the wilderness).

  • 35. Roy  |  November 5, 2009 at 12:38 am

    Lucian,

    All I can say is that you and I are a different wave lengths. Further discussion between the two of us will be fruitless. A virgin birth, the working of spectacular miracles like walking on water etc., the fact that Jesus was executed, and the fact that he presumably resurrected three days later are all *completely* irrelevant to my personal theology and relationship with god. Am I a Christian? Yes. Certain aspects of Jesus’ ministry are profound for me. We just have different interpretations of it.

    Peace,

    Roy

  • 36. Dennis Poitras  |  November 7, 2009 at 8:16 pm

    PARTHENOGENESIS, VIRGIN BIRTH, PANDORA’S BOX, THE STORY OF LAURIE

    This blog attempts to examine human parthenogenesis or Virgin Birth. We will be opening Pandora’s Box, (women’s mysteries) facing Medusa and seeing if we can’t make sense of it all. Is parthenogenesis real or not? Do children born this way possess special abilities? If you make it through the first part, I’m sure you’ll want to read The Story of Laurie. Bon Voyage!

    It is said that Buddha’s mother conceived her son when in a state of blissful meditation under a banyan tree. Mary conceived Jesus in more or less the same way. It’s also been said that Leonardo Divinci, Joan of Ark, Moses, one of our Saint Catherine’s, Moses, (floating down a river in a basket?) Zoroaster and scores more geniuses, visionaries and healers throughout history came about this way. If many of the lower species can and do conceive parthenogenetically I don’t think it’s too shocking to assume that humans can too. Based on this fact alone I can’t imagine why scientists aren’t more curious. A hundred years ago the famous biologist, Jacques Loeb realized that: “The Male is not necessary for reproduction. A simple physio-chemical agent in the female is enough to bring it about.” Though no mammals have been known to have given birth parthenogenetically, Jacques Loeb got monkey embryos to fertilize through various means like electrical fields and saline solutions etc.
    In the early 70′s I read and wrote a review for a book about the Ojibwa or Chippewa people. (Sorry, I can’t remember the title.) The author spent a decade re-searching oral stories from the Ojibwa’s old traditional speakers that existed before the coming of the Whiteman. One story was that wise-women of the tribe looked for certain young maidens that possessed grace, intelligence and compassion. Sometimes a candidate for conceiving and giving birth this way wouldn’t show up for a generation or two. Nevertheless, these wise-women kept an eagle-eye open for her. When found, men were not allowed to court her. When she reached the age of fertility, her first period, she was instructed to fast for several days and, if willing, was required to dance around a fire in a sacred women’s lodge built far away from the village. This ceremony occurred while she was ovulating. Ideally a state of bliss or ecstasy was reached during which, according to hidden wise women knowledge, it would be possible for her to conceive and give birth in the “old Way”. They also knew that a child born this way would be blessed with gifts of healing, clairvoyance or leadership. The Great Spirit would give to the child whatever tools the tribe might be in need of. I believe this is what happened among The Essenes along The Dead Sea over 2,000 years ago. Jesus was the result. It’s my guess that hey planned it. Also, I might venture to say that this “old way” of conceiving and giving birth was considered a no-no during a time when patriarchy was firmly established. Was this why King Herod felt so threatened, enough to try and have all the new born males put to death in his kingdom?
    It’s assumed that the law of parthenogenesis results in the birth of females only. This has been shown to occur in animal, insect and microscopic species but it may operate differently among humans, for there is a visionary power us humans possess. The Sanskrit term for it is Kriyashakti or, in short, Shakti; the mysterious power of thought which enables us to produce external, perceptible, phenomenal results by its own inherent energy. Any idea will manifest itself externally if one’s attention is deeply concentrated. If a woman envisions a boy it’s quite possible she will give birth to one. “In the Mother Cell begins all living things. The Creative Principle is feminine. The highest divine mystery is Brahamana, the feminine of Brahma.” (according to Hindu mythology) If I haven’t scared the reader off by dipping into religious lore, one might ask the biological reason for the presence of the hymen in women. I believe only one species of whale has a hymen but it is to keep sea-water out. Among us humans the hymen remains a “medical mystery”. Some folks think it’s there merely as fodder for comedians. Is it there because Nature, the great conservative, has a higher form of conception and birth in mind for women? One might also inquire about dermoid cysts—-or certain types of them. Looking up dermoid cysts in Chambers Medical Dictionary, under Medio-logical Records, one finds; “dermoid cystic growths; embryonic growths or tumor-like formations found in women which are of congenital origin, containing evidence of being dejecta membra, or the remains of pregnant growths, in the embryonic fetal period of gestation, somewhat akin to the primary state of being with child.” Some of these dermoid cysts, sometimes mistaken by surgeons for tumors, but really are embryos, are similar in all respects to the products of female gestation, containing bones, hair, teeth, flesh, glands, portions of the scalp, face, eyes, ribs,—–in short, all the organs of the human body—what else could they be but virgin embryos in the process of development? The following is from a recent news item (as of Oct.’09) : A dermoid cyst, also known as benign cystic teratoma, which develops “from germ cells which are primitive cells that are capable of producing eggs and all human tissues,” Dr. Judith Reichman says on MSNBC’s Web site, http://www.msnbc.msn.com. “A dermoid cyst is formed if the germ cells multiply bizarrely without fertilization, forming an encapsulated tumor that contains hair, sebaceous or oil materials, cartilage, bone, neural tissue and teeth.”
    In a lecture delivered before the New York Academy of Medicine in 1933, on “Immaculate Conception—a Scientific Possibility”, Dr. Walter Timme, eminent endocrinologist, presented evidence to prove that Immaculate Conception is physiologically possible. The parovarium of the female reproductive organs, he claims, in some cases can produce living spermatozoa capable of impregnating eggs in the same body, causing them to develop without male fertilization.
    They’ve been known to appear in young girls from 8 to 16 that have their hymens intact. Unbeknownst to them, one of their eggs had parthenogenetically been fertilized and then had stopped developing and, typically getting trapped in their fallopian tube, had to be removed, as the failed embryo had become toxic. There is reason to believe that parthenogenesis was the primordial form of re-production for all life, while sexual generation (epigenesist) arose later as a result of inferior environmental and nutritive conditions resulting in diminished fertility. In other words, males develop in order to insure the survival of the species.
    Anthropoid apes, our closest biological cousins, have a monthly period while in captivity and on a artificial diet. When returned to their natural habitat and diet they will bleed in the Spring and Fall like most mammals. Back in 1969 I used to live at Hippocrates Health Institute, in Boston, where everyone drank wheatgrass juice, ate raw sprouts, fruits, nuts and vegetables and nothing else. That means, no bread, grains, meats, or dairy products. The root philosophy at Hippocrates is that “Life Comes Only From Life”. After a month or two on this living food diet some women would have their periods lessen in the amount of blood-loss; and the overall discomfort and cramps they usually experience practically vanished. One woman in particular, who I got to know as a sister, lost her period completely and enjoyed total health. I also met several women who experienced extended fasts of one month or more. They had no periods as well. It’s also quite common that many women athletes lose their periods. Non-menstruating women, providing they are on a (super)-natural diet, faithfully practicing yoga or getting lots of vigorous exercise, like women athletes, enjoy a superior, overall health with a robust vitality. They’re able to re-absorb vitamins, minerals and hormones otherwise lost during menstruation. I should say that women on a normal, civilized diet should have their period. This is nature’s way of cleaning house. We can’t all be raw-fooders. Frankly, most of us can’t even imagine wanting to be a super-natural-health-nut. I do not encourage going in this raw-food direction unless one truly studies the subject in depth with experienced teachers. A commitment to this lifestyle is taxing—-at least until one eliminates the accumulations of a toxic, civilized diet. There are artistic depictions of Mary standing on the Crescent Moon. Did our ancestors know that women had to rise above the moon (menstruation) in order to immaculately conceive? Indeed it seems obvious, from what we’ve observed thus far, that a clean, living food diet is necessary for eliminating wasteful monthly menstruation and is the foundation for the process of parthenogenesis. Part of the condition required for a virgin birth is alkalinity. A proper raw-food diet alkalizes the blood. In a way we are like alkaline batteries—80% alkaline, 20% acid—which allows us to hold our life-force completely. If this balance is upset, as in a “civilized” diet, the life-force fails to fill the body and illness results.

    It’s obvious that the human race is over-sexed. The earth has amassed way too many bodies that don’t know how to get along with each other and are straining the earth’s resources. This is old news. But sex is beautiful and deemed necessary by almost everyone I know. I’m the last person to say it is wrong or evil. Still, 50% of marriages end in divorce. Think of rape, disease, un-planned pregnancies, over-population and the endless battle of the sexes. Oh well, we must pay the fiddler for our modern lifestyles. I do. In almost every culture on earth and in almost every major religion stories of The Virgin Birth abide. The following is an old Fijian legend: “There was a great chief in Tonga who had an exceedingly beautiful daughter. He hid her from the eyes of men, for he had never seen one worthy to be her husband. Down on the sea-beach he built a fence, thick, strong and high. Here she used to bathe after which it was her custom to lie down for a time upon the clean white sand within the fence, that she might rest a while, and that her body might dry. So it came to pass that the Sun looked down upon her, and saw her and loved her; and in the course of time a child was born to her, whose name she called Sun-child”.
    It’s time we all chip in and take a close look at this simple, long-forgotten and possibly forbidden subject. Is it fact or fiction? Are all parthenogenetic children gifted? As far as I’ve learned a virgin birth doesn’t guarantee the child will possess super-human powers. They could be as normal as any other child. Most likely they will, at the very least, have spiritual gifts like humility and compassion and would not want anyone to know of their special conception. Would you?
    I’m searching for re-searchers, fact-finders, and fact-checkers, anyone in earnest to uncover more about human parthenogenesis. In my little pea-brain virgin birth is the jewel in the crown of creation. It’s the tip of an iceberg of hidden knowledge—–knowledge that might lead to God or Goddess knows what. Is it truly possible to prepare a woman for such a feat? Would any among us be courageous enough to attempt it? Will the return of parthenogenesis be the straw to break the back of patriarchy? I’m certainly not interested in raising women upon another unreachable pedestal. There’s nothing wrong with modern, meat-eating women. At least this shouldn’t stop them and us men too, from being loving and responsible human beings. Every child is sacred and special no matter how they are born. I’m not trying to create a master race. And men are wonderfully filled with spark and creativity, piss and vinegar. They will not disappear. Yet we must eat some humble pie if we’re going to be open to these truths that art too important to be new. Speaking as a normal, red-blooded American guy, I can say that, once I opened Pandora’s Box and got freaked out by Medusa (women’s mysteries) my ego got beat up a little but it didn’t crumble and I think I’m better off for it. At least I don’t feel so left out of the loop of this ancient/modern knowledge. I sincerely believe that truth will set us free—-the more the merrier. That being said, as I approach 60 years of age, I still feel dumb. I’m not a trained scientist by any means and I never had the opportunity to attend college. I’ll end, for now, with a quote from Professor Frances Lester Ward: “Women are the race itself….the strong primary sex, and man the biological afterthought.” I’ve been contemplating this subject since 1969. It won’t go away. Mama Mia, what are we gonna do?

    The Story of Laurie

    In a way I wish this story was made up. It would be a lot easier to write and a breeze to forget about. But it won’t go away. You could put me in a blender and watch the facts get jumbled up but it wouldn’t change anything. I stake my life on the substance of this story as being as true and real as concrete. Having said that, one must bear in mind how the memory tends to mythologize everything it gathers and experiences. Be assured that I will try my absolute best to get the bare bones of it down, no matter my faults and limitations. But let us to cut to the chase.

    I first met my friend Laurie in the spring of 1976 in Ashland, Oregon. She was 19, I was almost 26. She was completing a year of fasting and wondering if she should continue and, through a mutual friend, had heard about me living in the mountains of Oregon, above Klamath Falls. Hearing this encouraged me to realize that it was time for a change and I re-located to Ashland. I was on a type of sabbatical living among American Indians and had been feeling that my work with them had come to an end.
    In my new backyard, out the window, I could see this lovely, 6 foot, 2 inch tall woman with long black hair, and she was holding a copy of Survival Into The 21st Century, by Viktoras Kulvinskas, a close friend of mine and co-founder, along with Dr. Ann Wigmore, of Hippocrates Health Institute in Boston Mass. Laurie happened to be sitting in the garden behind the apartment she used to rent, the very one I was now renting. We both had no idea we’d be meeting up so soon or in this very place. Thanks to Viktoras’s unusual library I had already been educated about breatharians, women’s mysteries, matriarchy, fruitarians, raw-food diets, and having chlorophyll in the diet via wheatgrass juice. Chlorophyll, under the microscope, is said to resemble human blood. After testing many types of greens for chlorophyll content and taste Dr. Ann Wigmore and Viktoras found that wheatgrass contained 80% chlorophyll and tasted quite good. Simply said, chlorophyll is sunlight trapped through photo-synthesis in green plants. Here begins the food chain.
    It was all taught to me, and more, at Hippocrates. Despite this heady background, who was I to tell Laurie what to do about continuing, or not, her long fast?
    I never thought I’d ever meet a celibate, breatharian woman whose menstruation had ceased, who did a lot of hiking without becoming exhausted and whose body-weight never dipped below 135 lbs. And she wasn’t suffering from anorexia. She also didn’t have a Holier-Than-Thou attitude. Presently, though she isn’t fasting anymore, she still weighs 135 lbs. She is light-hearted, a chatter-box really, and lots of fun to talk to. A Taurus woman with her feet on the ground and her head in the clouds, only a soul grounded in the real can glimpse the un-real. If one wants to fly freely one has to have sturdy wings. Laurie’s no angel but her ability to fast for so long came about after several years of study, preparation, and experimentation. All right kids, don’t try these things at home. Raw food, fasting, trying to eliminate menstruation and practicing celibacy is not for everyone. And it’s difficult, if not dangerous to do on your own.
    If you insist on finding out more, don’t worry the books and teachers will manifest according to your desire to discover them.

    Back in early ’76 I too was celibate, which is easier to sustain on a raw-food diet, and Laurie and I became instant friends. Growing up, I was and still am, very close to my sisters Elaine and Donna, and Laurie and I became like sister and brother right away. At last I had someone to talk to about breatharians and the coming New Age. We even discussed parthenogenesis, although only briefly. From time to time that Spring I had my four and a half year old son, Justin, with me and she got close to him too. I had married very young. No, I wasn’t truly ready for it and I wasn’t ready for a child either but nature had had her way. The marriage didn’t survive but fatherhood did. After my marriage disintegrated I recharged myself on a raw-food diet, I became celibate once again and unconsciously prepared myself for god-knows-what.
    Laurie and I used to talk for 6 to 8 hours non-stop. That spring I had spells of hay-fever. Sometimes she would take on the symptoms, like she would with many of her acquaintances, and my spells went away. On another fine spring day I arrived at her home to find her sprawled on her sofa with a cold cloth on her forehead. She had just returned from the hospital where she had visited an old guy, a street-person really, who was suffering from hepatitis. It was just like her to make friends with anyone and everyone. She told me about the horrible aches and pains and high fever she just went through shortly after visiting her friend. The man was released a few days later, much to the surprise of the doctors and nurses that were attending him.
    Did Laurie plan taking on symptoms of those she knew that were sick? We discussed this very point and the answer was no. She couldn’t explain why it happened and I didn’t push her for further explanations. I was getting to know her, her whims and interests, her humor and habits. If there’s one quality that stands out about someone who is fasting it is that they are like clear crystal glass. As food and toxins are eliminated ones emotions become calm. Fears, phobias, mental confusion, and emotional disturbances evaporate. A fasting person becomes a vessel of peace and a clear mirror to friends and family. There is nothing to hide, nothing to make you worry, and nothing to lie about. Because I have fasted numerous times, lying about anything was completely out of the question. I say all this because you have only little old me to rely on for the truth in this story, just as I only have my dear friend Laurie to rely on for what she told me. And what she always told me was true. For, once someone fasts, especially for so long, there truly is nothing to hide and no reason to make up a story about yourself or about anything.

    I would have to break for lunch while she would sip on distilled water. Sometimes, out of fear of withering away, she would put organic grapes in a blender and strain them in cheesecloth before drinking it. But the presence of fine pulp would be enough to make her stomach regurgitate it. She also worked part-time in a local restaurant. Everyone that knew her was aware that she didn’t eat. I certainly saw it for myself. Plus she wasn’t trying to do anything like become a breatharian. She wasn’t trying to get rid of her period either, nor was she fleeing from sex. She wasn’t a complete virgin. Yes, she had experiences around about age 16. They had been gentle, short-lived experiences but sex for her just didn’t have the treasures she was seeking, treasures that she couldn’t describe to herself or anyone.
    I can easily say that she wasn’t, spiritually ambitious. And parthenogenesis didn’t stick out in her mind and heart like it did with me. Above everything else she is open and compassionate toward all living beings. She is simply and willfully curious; curious with a capital C because she began to experiment with macrobiotics and basic vegetarianism and fruitarianism when around the age of 14. Initially what drove her to do so was that she felt it was morally wrong to kill animals for food. She still feels this way.

    The Irish say there is but one tragedy in life; and that is when a child dies before the parents do.
    In August of that year, 1976, my beautiful son drowned in the Russian River which runs, in dreary melancholy, to the sea, north of San Francisco. I was devastated. By then Laurie had returned to Colorado to live with her mother. When, through friends, she found out that Justin had drowned she kept in touch with me almost daily at my parent’s home in New England to which I had fled like a bird with a severely broken wing. We wrote and called each other several times a week. I learned through the years to live with this loss, this open wound. You can stitch it up but don’t expect it to heal. It’s as if we have an innate mechanism to deal with the death people other than our children. A child represents your future. The future needs hope like earth needs the sun. It’s wrong to try and heal this kind of wound; one has to learn to live with it. One cannot live without hope. Hope cannot be buried along with your child. The loss of a spouse, parent or friend, as tough as it is, can’t be compared to the loss of a child. So don’t ask me what reality is. I’ve had all I can of it. When I saw him, after he was found by city-hired scuba-divers, almost 24 hours from the time he went missing, being loaded into the back of a truck by the Russian River, I saw reality. It doesn’t mean that I’ve turned by back on reality; it’s more like I have a lens through which to view and experience it. But let’s get on with the story.

    Laurie informed me, more than once, that I was her confidant, the only soul to whom she spoke to about the spiritual voices she often heard late at night and everything else she was going through. She also managed to keep her mom from knowing about her long fast by renting a studio apartment nearby and only dropping by to see her “between meals”. Significant or not, I later learned that Laurie’s mother was a Hungarian Jew and her father an Englishman. She went to public school and was raised with no particular religion. She had no orthodox bearded guy hovering over her, no sky-god she had to please or be afraid of. Instead of some bible-god she referred to the great unseen as “the light”. Einstein once said that everything is energy and energy is God. I have no reason to disagree.

    Her fast had diminished her need for sleep. Instead, her sleep was transformed into a 3 to 4 hour meditation during which, toward dawn, she began hearing messages from some kind of spiritual beings. Initially they spoke to her about me and the loss of my son. Later they spoke of future world events and gave her personal guidance. One time she gave me comfort by passing down a message to me from my son saying that he didn’t blame me for his drowning and that he loved me and knew that I loved him.
    A few months later Laurie asked me to get in touch with Viktoras Kulvinskas. Her breasts were mysteriously leaking milk. Could I find out if this was normal, especially for a woman in her special condition? Of course I would try. So I called him and gave him her number and he assured Laurie that, yes, it was okay and was quite common among healthy, vegetarian women.
    There were things Laurie began hearing at night that she couldn’t even tell me about. Then her letters and calls almost came to a stand-still. I began to worry. But on December 24Th around 10:30 pm, Eastern Standard Time, the phone rang. Laurie told me the following, right away, without even saying hi: “I’ve just had an incredible experience with a powerful light, a blissful light. And while within this state of bliss I was told that I had conceived a child!” What could I do but listen and say, okay, wow, fantastic!
    “Do you think it’s real?” I asked her. She couldn’t say that it was for sure. She just knew how powerful and wonderful that blissful light was and she was still riding high from it. Our conversation drifted around to mundane things. Then she hung up after promising to call more often in the coming days.

    And call she did, about 2 weeks later. After coming down from her experience with bliss she began to wonder if it was real. Had she conceived? Was she now pregnant? And here is where her torment started. How dare her question “the light”, how dare her wonder if was just a fantasy. Yet how was she supposed to go forward with these questions and doubts eating away at her? Despite this battle waging within she had gone to a pregnancy-testing clinic and got medical proof that indeed she was “with child”. The doctor in charge found that her blood was “as pure and free-flowing as a new-born baby’s”. She responded by saying she was a vegetarian but kept it a secret that she didn’t eat solid food at all. He then asked her if she’d be willing to visit a colleague of his in a neighboring state who loved to examine women in various states of health. At the time she couldn’t say yes or no.
    A short while later he called her at home and gave her the address and phone number of his colleague who offered to pay for her transportation and hotel room for as long as the examinations lasted. She asked for my advice on the matter. She was concerned once again about questioning the light and wondered if she hadn’t already gone to far by verifying her pregnancy at her local clinic. I felt deeply about her dilemma but couldn’t offer any advice one way or another.
    The next call I got from her, a few weeks later, was from a phone-booth near the doctor’s office that liked examining women with unusual conditions of health. He too verified that she was pregnant and was wildly impressed with the pure quality of her blood. Of course, as in the previous clinic she visited, there was no discussion about how she got pregnant, so this wasn’t added to the reasons this doctor wanted her to stay for several more days of testing.
    She knew at this point that she had gone too far in questioning the light but she also didn’t want to go home. Since we had talked about the Hopi Indians and their prophesies about the coming of the true white brother, who was supposed to be in possession of knowledge that would help them survive the cleansing of the earth mother, she was intent on going there. In fact, it had been what I had planned to do but was stopped dead in my tracks when my son drowned. I was saying goodbye to him when visiting him in California because I felt somehow that I wouldn’t be seeing him for a while. I’d no idea I’d ever be able to see him again. He had drowned that very day and I went back east to live with my folks and try to nurse myself back to a reasonable state of psychological and emotional stability. Laurie seemed like the perfect candidate for such a mission even though she wasn’t a true white brother, we both realized that someone from the white race would do and gender didn’t matter. After all, she did know about sprouts, wheatgrass, living food and fasting and she had been to Hippocrates Health Institute. And she read Viktor’s book, Survival Into The 21st Century. Laurie was as qualified as me, if not more, to approach the Hopi with this prophesied knowledge.
    It sure sounds like a movie. Hang on, it gets better. Or should I say it gets more movie-like.

    Picture a 6 foot, 2 inch tall, 20-year old woman, barefoot, with long, straight, black hair, clothed in light-colored cotton, hitch-hiking down a road somewhere in Arizona. She was always barefoot. Her feet were elegant and just what you’d expect to find on a young, healthy woman. Underneath these fine feet of hers were thick calluses that allowed her to walk upon any surface without causing her pain. Of course, for going into stores or other public places, she kept a pair of light sandals. Carrying nothing else, except some identification, she also had almost no money to speak of and wasn’t quite sure where she was heading. To the Hopi Nation was all that she knew. The first man who gave her a ride found out how broke she was and gave her an old silver flute that happened to be in his back seat. After being let out on the outskirts of some obscure desert-town, she pawned the flute for $20 and bought herself some distilled water. Her second ride came from an old farmer and lasted for a few hundred miles. He apologized for having to drop her off near the entrance to his farm which was in the middle of no-where.
    A pickup truck went zooming by with Indians in it. They went around a bend in the hi-way and came by her again, this time yelling taunts and obscenities; things that obnoxious guys sometimes say to women especially when they’ve been drinking and in some kind of dog-pack situation like being squished together in an old pickup truck with no one around but themselves and a lone, beautiful woman. Realizing they were drunk and seeing them disappearing around a corner once again, she ran off into the surrounding hills following no road, or cattle-path, or dried river-bed. Satisfied that she had lost these guys, she came slowly upon a clearing and could see that there were tee-pees and other small dwellings set up in the distance. Standing on the edge of this clearing was a short old Indian man with long white hair. He spotted her and waved. Feeling welcomed she advanced to the campground. He said, “Hello little mother.” This took her breath away. Then he said, “You’re the one, you are having a baby, right?” She nodded yes. He then asked her to come and sit a while. There were things that he needed to talk to her about. Things regarding the baby she was carrying and lots more.
    Before she accepted his invitation she told him that she needed to head to the nearest phone to call a friend. He replied, “Oh, you mean Dennis? We know about him”.
    It could be that he did know me because I had written to Thomas Banyaca who was the spokesperson for the council of elders of the Hopi Nation. My letter addressed the coming of the true white brother prophecy and I had expressed my desire to visit them to talk about The Essenes, the first Christians, the recipe they once had for “living bread” and my knowledge of sprouts and wheatgrass. I distinctly said that I wasn’t the true white brother so much as I was a true white brother and that I felt I did have some information that would help them, and all of us, to survive the cleansing of the earth mother. But I have no idea if this little old Hopi man knew of my letter, which was written months ago, and he could have simply channeled the knowledge of my name.
    Laurie somehow did make it to a phone and told me not to worry, that she was safe and was going to return to this man, named Greyhawk. He was 104 years old and had been waiting for her for 60 years! His wife had died decades ago when he was in his prime. He was in such grief that the thought of ending his life crossed his mind until he had a dream in which he was told that he had to live out his life in order to pass on information he had to a woman, called little mother, that would come to him someday.
    I was still living at home with my folks, 26 years old, and feeling like a dog with his tail between his legs, when I received this incredible phone-call from Laurie. I remember that I was eating dinner with my parents and that my mouth was full of mashed potatoes. The last I’d heard from her she was torn about going to this second doctor, who liked studying women. So she filled me in with all of her adventures since then. I told her not to worry about me either, that I was glad she had escaped that truck full of drunken Indians and hoped that everything would go well with her visit with Greyhawk. Then I finished my dinner and called it a day. After getting this last incredible phone call from my breatharian, mysteriously pregnant, barefoot sister-friend, how could I ever feel normal about anything ever again? Not that I particularly benefited from being normal. It’s just that I had to pinch myself regarding what I was hearing from her as being real, in the middle of grieving for my son and living back on the east coast with my folks, away from the mountains, the Klamath-Modoc Indians, and my raw-food diet.
    Greyhawk knew that he was going to die after 7-days of her visit. He knew that she was pregnant and also knew that it was conceived in a special way. I found out later that many indigenous peoples the world over always have known that conception could occur normally, between a man and a woman and by a woman on her own or with the help of the tribe’s wise-women.
    Greyhawk told her that her child was like a light that was clinging to her uterus, that this child was going to be very important and that Laurie would be instructed to break her fast when the baby was about to enter its 9-month cycle of physical growth. He told her many things but was instructed by him not to tell anyone, not even her friend Dennis. Seven days later Greyhawk died just like he said he would. Now he could be re-united with his beloved. Laurie returned home to wait with patience and love what was surely going to come. Her doubts were gone. She questioned the light no more.

    We stayed in touch after this episode but the letters and calls had bigger and bigger gaps of time between them. This was okay. We both needed to digest what had happened and she told me that her voices were asking her to seek solitude. She did find solace even though she had to work part-time in some small factory. It’s hard to imagine Laurie, in her special condition, having to do this but it’s what happened. She had to function in the real world and be aware for the time when she was to break her fast and prepare for the arrival of her baby. Meanwhile my compounded grief erupted into problems with my teeth. A radical change in diet prompted this too and I had to go through lots of pain involving tooth extractions, root-canals and cavities. My brother came to get me at the dentist’s office after one of these sessions. I was on a couch in a recovery room and was drenched in tears because, under the influence of anesthesia, I had re-experienced searching for Justin after he had disappeared near the Russian River. I had seen him in that plastic bag the scuba-divers had put him in and I saw him for the last time all dressed up in an Indian ribbon-shirt that his mother had made for him an hour before he was cremated.

    “We speak of what we know. We bear witness to that which we see.”
    —St. John

    Winter passed with light exchanges between Laurie and me. In the spring of 1977, on Easter Day of all things, she called me breathless once again as if from the top of a mountain. She had just encountered that blissful light again. It had lasted about 15 to 20 minutes, though it felt much longer, and when she came out of it she noticed that her hands and feet had small streams of blood flowing from them. I thought at first that it was some kind of Jesus connection but she didn’t think so. It didn’t hurt and the bleeding had stopped after a few minutes. Many years later I was thumbing through a book on psychic phenomena when I found a reasonable explanation. Our hands and feet are the repository of nerve-endings that derive from all our inner organs. At the center of our hands and feet lie connections to our solar plexus, the hub, the inner wheel of what we are. Sometimes souls gifted with contemplative ecstasy or bliss will purge blood from the centers of their hands and feet. They are in union with a divine energy that is so powerful and pure that any impurities in their spiritual and physical body are flushed out. For someone like Laurie that wasn’t raised Catholic or Christian it is interesting that she conceived on Christmas Eve via a light of bliss and had a stigmatic experience on Easter Sunday. I concluded that it has more to do with the equinoxes than anything else. All I know is that it happened, like everything else that happened to her, and there’s nothing really left to argue about. No one could make any of these stories up and expect to be believed. Laurie didn’t and I didn’t either. There’s no sane reason to do so. And we both, to this day, don’t have a spiritual agenda we wish to bombastically shine in peoples eyes. A need to share it all is where I’m coming from and that’s that.
    Proof of her stigmatic experience was seen by me when she came for a visit in the summer of 1977. She pointed out the small brown dots that had remained on her hands and feet. By no means were they scabs but looked instead like small scars that had healed long ago. I took one close look at them and we continued with our conversation as we walked from the bus station to my parent’s home, she being barefoot as usual and I protected by shabby sneakers which was my usual footwear. My sister-in-law, Ellen, lived with my young nephew on the third floor of the apartment building my grandfather had built. My brother and Ellen had separated. Consequently her apartment had a bit more space. Ellen was keen on meeting Laurie so she was glad to be able to put her up.
    The week she visited gave me the opportunity to write down the basic times and dates, the where’s and how’s of her unusual experiences thus far. We had to go over a number of things until we got things right as she didn’t remember exactly the uncanny day of her conception, which had been Christmas Eve, or the day she had her hands and feet bleed during an episode with the light, which was on Easter Sunday. By the way, that latter experience was to her another verification of her pregnancy. Those two dates had stuck in my memory most likely because of my Catholic background and once I reminded her that her two blissful experiences had occurred on these special days she was quick to remember and agree that I was correct.
    I had thought to myself, thank God someone was writing this all down.
    My parents were concerned that having Laurie around was going to increase their grocery bills. I told them for the 2nd time that she didn’t eat but I don’t think it sank in. She spent most of her time visiting with Ellen and playing with my little nephew. We took walks to all my old stomping grounds which included a visit to the beautiful Catholic church I had unwilling spent a lot of my youth in. Regardless of my past resentments, I still liked to go there now and then because I liked the echo’s that resounded when I played my silver flute.
    In preparation for Laurie’s visit I had bought her 2 gallons of distilled water and a pound of grapes. By the end of her stay there remained one gallon of water and only a half pound of grapes which she had put into a blender and strained before drinking it. Ellen and my nephew didn’t see eat and my parents and I didn’t see her eat. But I didn’t need further proof of anything from Laurie. She was my spiritual sister and I loved and trusted her completely. The fact that she endured a grueling bus-trip from the great southwest to my hometown near Boston says a lot about her. I think she wanted to bring comfort to me as she knew my wound wasn’t about to heal very soon.
    In the early 80’s I returned to the west, residing in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Here I blossomed as an artist and musician and had a much more successful though childless marriage that lasted 7 years. It was also in Santa Fe that I joined a small organization called Compassionate Friends that existed for the soul purpose of helping people that had lost a child. Here most of my grief was finally processed and my understanding was enriched.

    Laurie went home, continuing to work at her boring job and upon spiritual promptings further removed herself from her mom and those that knew her. During this time of going within she was instructed to start eating again. It was a big change for her. After some false starts and regurgitations she was able to get back into the swing of things, eating and digesting food just like everyone else on the planet but, like I said earlier, her weight never went above 135 lbs. Entering this last stage of her pregnancy, she realized that soon she would be “showing”. Because she was so tall and slim Laurie knew she had time to get away from everyone without being obvious. She especially didn’t want her mother to know of her condition. So much was unclear to her as to what she should do exactly during this last phase of her remarkable adventure. When and how was she to deliver her baby? Should she engage the expertise of a mid-wife? If not, could she safely and correctly give birth herself? I was left in the dark regarding this final phase of her pregnancy of and, up to this present time, facts remain hazy.

    All I have left to tell you is that Laurie gave birth, unassisted by anyone, a month or so prematurely, to a healthy but tiny girl at midnight, March 12th, 1979. Her daughter, the result of a direct conception through a blissful union with the creator, died about four months later. Oh, I wish I had known! I wish I could have been there for her though I don’t think I could have changed anything.
    More time went by. I was in anguish about her whereabouts. All letters and phone calls had ceased. Finally she got back in touch with me to tell me of her daughter’s birth and sorrowful death. She said, “The vibrations of this planet were too gross, too dense for her”. Shasta, named after Laurie’s favorite mountain in California, wouldn’t be staying with us. She had returned to the light from which she had come.
    It’s very hard for her to talk about so I’ve never pushed her to give me any more details about Shasta’s birth and passage back to eternity.

    Throughout the 80’s and 90’s, after somehow surviving a long period of sad darkness and despair, Laurie met a man and started up a small family through normal means. She’s now doing quite fine but doesn’t dwell on the past very much and continues to pursue spiritual methods of healing. Ironically, but understandably so, she doesn’t place much importance on parthenogenesis. She told me, “All human beings, despite the nature of their conception, are important and special”.
    I clearly see her point but differ in the idea that parthenogenetically produced children are not interesting at the very least. Does it not intrigue us all to think that a child conceived without the influence of extra genes and without the karma that comes with normal conceptions, has special gifts from the light? Are we not in need of high-frequency beings, 21st century saints, technological geniuses, master musicians and spiritual masters? Is there room on this planet for another Jesus or Buddha? Is there enough love and understanding?

    “Recorded history starts with a patriarchal revolution. Let it continue with the matriarchal counter-revolution: that is the only hope for the survival of the human race.” —Elizabeth Gould Davis

    What role can parthenogenesis have in this counter-revolution?

    For burning your brain with information regarding parthenogenesis read: Mysteries of Human Reproduction, by Raymond Bernard.

    For a deep look at western civilization’s knowledge of parthenogenesis and all of its implications for today read: Marguerite Rigoglioso’s
    The Cult of Divine Birth in Ancient Greece, which has recently been published. Then you can properly respond to this blog of blogs.

    Meanwhile if you’ve something positive to contribute please do so.
    In sincere compassion and good will I have put my best foot forward.
    It’s time to take the next step. Thanks for listening.
    Posted by Den at 5:54 AM 0 comments
    Labels: Pandora’s Box, Parthenogenesis, The Story of Laurie, Virgin Birth

  • 37. DSimon  |  November 10, 2009 at 8:39 am

    Can we refer to that as a drive-by sustained barrage? There’s not enough tl;dr in the world…

  • 38. HeIsSailing  |  November 10, 2009 at 9:08 am

    Nah – - – it’s just a crappy cut’n’paste job.

  • 39. DSimon  |  November 10, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    Does it only count as a drive-by if it’s not copy and paste?

  • 40. Joe  |  November 10, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    “Daddy, read me a story. No, not that one. Read me the one about parthenogenesis. I went night-night real quick the last time you read it to me”

  • 41. Mystery Porcupine  |  November 10, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    oh my gosh, that is a huge bit of nonsense! Sadly, I didn’t read it all. can anyone summarize in three sentences or less?

  • 42. LeoPardus  |  November 10, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    Post #36: Holy shit! That’s a huge load of wastage.

  • 43. Ubi Dubium  |  November 10, 2009 at 8:24 pm

    oh my gosh, that is a huge bit of nonsense! Sadly, I didn’t read it all. can anyone summarize in three sentences or less?

    I have discovered Truth! {ancient myth} {unsubstantiated anecdote} {unsupported assertion}. Read my website! (And I have not read anything on your website, and have no idea who I am talking to!)

    Better?

  • 44. Melanie Stephan  |  November 30, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    Some of you couldn’t read all about parthenogenesis, but you could read the Bible from cover to cover? I read say half of parthenogenesis then it got to the point where I had to scroll down to see how long this was. When I got to everyones comments it turned out worth reading. I found them humorous. When I read parts of the Bible it was always the same way. I would have to stop and see how many pages I still had to read. It was just hard to read.

    Anyway I do have something to say about the Virgin Birth below.

  • 45. Melanie Stephan  |  November 30, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    In Jerusalem, Titus sees the Virgin on the road. Titus takes what is not his. Coins of little value are left on the road. Jesus’ life begins in Jerusalem.

    Why are the coins left on the road? My though on this is that it is for appearances. Titus does not want to be seen as a theif, He is a man of honor. Besides other people are watching.

    But isn’t this abduction? That’s got’a still look bad? No, it doesn’t look bad. At this time in history women are looked on as a commodity. They are not seen as living, thinking, feeling human beings. They are just objects. During this period being a Pimp or a John is acceptable.

    This also means Jesus was NOT born in Bethlahem and didn’t live in Nazareth.

    The message is: ‘Life begins in Jerusalem’

  • 46. Melanie Stephan  |  December 1, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    So what happened next? God says that: “When Jesus became a man he was taken to Rome with other prisoners. He was taken there to be taught a lesson by those that are smarter, better and far more superior than himself.”

    God does not give details of the torture. My guess is that the Romans took their time. If the students dies to soon the show is over and the Jew Swine hasn’t learned his lesson. The Romans learned that you have to scratch at the surface first. You don’t want to get your point through to soon or the lesson is over. In the end the Romans always got their point (spear) through. Over and over again the Roman’s proved they are right (smarter).

    The point is that might is right. The Romans are always Right and Victorious. The stupid Jew swine loser lays dead. He learned his lesson. We won, We are Victorious.

    God says he was extremely hurt by what the Romans did. He didn’t strike out after them for what they did. God came for his Son before he dies. He brings him back to his House where is Resurrected. Jesus gets a beautiful new body. (His old body is trash. It gets tossed over the Rock.)

    Does God forgive the Romans for what they did? I don’t know if he will care enough to want to save them from death. In my opinion God will do nothing for them. If he does anything for them it will be to show them that Rome is really Hell. Hell is were you die a horrible death.

    The message is: “Life starts in Jerusalem and it ends in Rome.”

  • 47. Melanie Stephan  |  December 1, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    Now there is one problem that I have with Gods story so far. Maybe you see it too. He tells me where Christ is born and where he dies, he has nothing to say about Christ’s life. Where are all of the miracles and things that Christ taught? Months go by and I am confused about the life of Christ. In a dream God tells me that Jesus’ real name is John. I am still confused. The name John is a clue word just like the clue word Fritters. Months go by I am still confused, I just don’t get the clue ‘John’. I have given up. I get another clue, the clue is dough. Now I get it. At the last supper Jesus breaks the bread and says this is my body. The body of Christ is Dough. Johns last name is Doe. Christ’s real name is John Doe. That also means that John was NOT the prophet. The savior or the messiah that the Jews have been waiting for hasn’t come yet.

    The message is: “The House of David was taken to Rome.”

  • 48. cretien  |  December 7, 2009 at 3:08 am

    TO: The de-Convert

    Contact me via email as I would like to share something with you to confirm your stance but very much also open your eyes.

  • 49. Dr Michael Foster  |  January 8, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    Almah the Hebrew word means Young Maiden not simply young woman. ie. A young virgin who is of an age to marry. The word is used interchanably in some passages of the OT with Virgin. Before the birth of Jesus (in other words before any controversy) Greek speaking Jews used the term Virgin as their translation of Almah in Isaiah 7, and therefor nothing to do with any Christian bias!
    Mark does not cover the birth narative and Paul did not seek to write a Gospel. His readers were already aware of the tradition. His epistles are reminders (1 Co 15:1) and to deal with disputes. However in Gal 4:4 he states that “God sent forth his son, born of a woman.” and adds ” Born under the law”. Paul did not need to use the word “virgin”. His point was that Jesus was born as man and under the [Jewish] law to redeem those under the law. “Born of a woman” in a literal transaltion is “becoming of a woman” – thus Paul’s “sent by God, becoming of a woman” equates well with Matthew and Luke’s virgin birth.

  • 50. Dr Michael Foster  |  January 13, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    In further considering Paul’s alleged silnce it can be noted that Paul uses the term “God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” in Romans 15:6, and 2 Corinthian 11:31. As to the second Gospel; Mark does not cover the birth narrative but in the opening verses records this; “Jesus Christ, the Son of God. ” John’s Gospel perhaps has fully absorbed the doctrine of the Virgin birth with its; ” And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.”. Also in John’s Gospel (8:41) there is the taunt of the Jews “we were not born of fornication” – which is surprising given that he was known as the son of Joseph (John 1:45) suggesting that there was something suspect about his birth.

  • 51. Dr Michael Foster  |  January 13, 2012 at 4:12 pm

    Further – as to Paul’s alleged silence, the institution of the Lord’s Supper, would have never been recorded by Paul, if he had not needed to seek to correct certain abuses. The Corinthians to which Paul wrote already knew about the tradition of the Lord’s Supper. If Paul had not written to deal with the abuses that had arisen, it could be argued that he was not aware of that tradition, and worst still that the tradition can be caled into question due to Paul’s silence! This is the folly of an argument based on silence!

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Attention Christian Readers

Just in case you were wondering who we are and why we de-converted.

de-conversion wager

Whether or not you believe in God, you should live your life with love, kindness, compassion, mercy and tolerance while trying to make the world a better place. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will have made a positive impact on those around you. If there is a benevolent God reviewing your life, you will be judged on your actions and not just on your ability to blindly believe in creeds- when there is a significant lack of evidence on how to define God or if he/she even exists.

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