…And by the way – just because they indoctrinated you does not mean you have earned the right to pick apart their faith. Nope. Doesn’t. What you want doesn’t really matter as far as their lives are concerned. If they admit their faith has caused you harm, then they admit that there is something wrong with their faith. Why would you expect them to do that?…

Because he’s their son and they claim to love him? If what Josh wants is not of consequence, and they value their faith more than they value the feelings of their own son, then what else can Josh do? Especially when he’s tried having conversations with his parents, and it’s gotten to the point where they don’t want to talk about it anymore. They value holding onto their fiction more than resolving a dispute about having that fiction inflicted upon him as a child, and his sister. It’s disgusting behaviour from his parents.

The feeling must be devastating.

…why don’t you just accept that fact that your Dad tried, he’s not perfect, and try to love him and your family by obeying his request of you?

Josh is trying, I don’t think he claims to be perfect, so maybe his dad should obey his request and not teach his sister that he’s going to hell. If effort + falling short of perfection = compliance from others, then surely the parent be expected to live by the same standard.

———-

Josh, if you feel angry, I think you have good a very good reason. I saw your update, but I’m curious if your father still believes that you’re going to Hell. I know he’s not telling your sister that, but does he still believe it himself? I don’t want to tell you how to live your life, but I’ve gotten many pseudo apologies from my parents. So this could just be me projecting my experiences here, but I don’t know what your apology was for, since I don’t think you did anything wrong. At the same time, what has changed since your father has apologized to you?

Genuinely curious, because my experience of being honest with my parents is excruciating and I am not sure how much longer I’m actually going to beat my head against the wall.

Now that I don’t believe in hell, I am relieved to feel that she is NOT going there. Of course, since I don’t believe in heaven either, this means there’s no way I can look forward to seeing my deceased loved ones again in heaven, which is sad. But at least none of them will be burning in hell forever … I hope.

This is the thing…you are now an adult. Your parents are adults. Though you were raised by them, and their faith has obviously greatly affected your life, their faith is NOT about YOU. It is about what they need to believe in order to feel secure and okay with life. What you have been saying is obviously threatening to them, whether you mean it to be or not. THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU. So why get pissed about it? You are soooo angry.

Look, you are not the only one in this situation. My husband and I are sitting in my Christian parents’ home. They hope that we are in a “phase” of unbelief or doubt. This is the third Christian home I have stayed in so far this holiday season, and I have just had to suck it up. Why? Because I love these people, and they cannot make it without their god. If I force the issue, I will lose my family. So I let it go.

No, it shouldn’t be like this, but it is. And yes, maybe you are justified in your anger, but are you happy in it? Does being angry and right make life better? Life is a series of compromises, one after another, greater and greater ones until we die – whether we are compromising in our expectations of other people or of our own situations. If we want peaceful family relationships, we just have to let go of things that are not about us. ..which is almost everything. People will usually do what they think is best for them, whether or not it is good for YOU.

Yes, maybe they are teaching your sister that people like you (and even you) go to hell. But your sister will grow up and think for herself. She will probably judge you based on your actions and your words. If you want her to question what she’s being taught, model things in a loving way, so that she sees that it’s not just Christians who can be loving and caring. Goodness, I even prayed for my godson in Jesus’ name last night, because that is HIS language, and it makes him feel safe, and he wouldn’t understand my language yet. But one day he will, because I am living my language in front of him. And when he learns that I don’t believe one day, he will see a life of love anyway, and maybe, just maybe, the truth will click with him. Maybe the fact that we are nonbelievers and we are loving will make a huge difference over time. That is what I hope….

Look, coming from someone who has already had cancer and lives with physical suffering – life is too short for unnecessary mental suffering too. Let it go. Observe the things that make you angry. Sometimes just noticing what makes me angry tells me a lot about my triggers and about how to keep from being triggered. Obviously, it hurts you to think about what your sister is being taught. But she is not being taught that because of YOU – she is being taught the same things you were taught. It isn’t personal (even though it is), and you don’t have to take it that way. People grow up and see the light – you sure did.

And by the way – just because they indoctrinated you does not mean you have earned the right to pick apart their faith. Nope. Doesn’t. What you want doesn’t really matter as far as their lives are concerned. If they admit their faith has caused you harm, then they admit that there is something wrong with their faith. Why would you expect them to do that? I think losing respect for someone, in most cases, is arrogant silliness. Respect people because it is a kind and good thing to do to treat people with respect and dignity. In some ways, they will exceed your expectations, and in some ways they will fail you. Big deal. Your life is not about your parents unless you allow it to be. This is how I’m dealing with things, anyway. Maybe everything will blow up in my face, but I am avoiding it as much as possible. I don’t think god is worth the havoc, since I don’t even believe he exists.

I just got a letter from my dad too- I think I told you, after I came out, he didn’t talk to me directly about religion for almost a year. He made some generalized comments of disapproval about my decision to not get married, but nothing that actually confronted what I’d told him about no longer believing. My parents were out for a visit a few weeks ago and he left me a letter. He wanted to talk about arguments for the existence of god and intelligent design more than about the specific tenets of Christianity.

Since this is our first correspondence, I wanted to respond thoroughly and give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s willing to hear an opposing view. I think that his situation is like when you read the Answers in Genesis- he went to some apologetics conferences and you know, everything sounds like a really great answer when only one side is presented against a bunch of strawmen. I don’t think it’ll change his mind, but I hope that he can accept that it’s not a case of air tight evidence, where anyone would have to believe if he could only be clear enough.

I don’t know how he’s going to respond, but if you’re interested, I can find somewhere to put up what I’ve written.

Did you decide whether to go home for Christmas, given that things have become more peaceful between you? I hope you have a good holiday break either way.

Molly in Denver

Your father, like most religious believers, is dogmatic. He believes what he believes because he wants to and no amount of discussion will change that. His world view can not be changed unless he desires it. You have to come to terms with that. It sounds as if you have tried to press the issue based on the comments about the holidays (Christmas is fundamentally a pagan holiday after all so there really is no reason not to celebrate it) and, as reasonable as your position may be, forcing your worldview on someone is not much better than indoctrinating a child.

I sympathize with your frustration and I wish you luck. Alienating your family seems a harsh consequence of standing up for your beliefs. Choose your battles and make sure the goal is worth the losses.

I still have a lot to learn. Thank you for your comments.

Not sure if you celebrate anything, but have a great New Year!

I was told my whole childhood that my own father and brother were going to go to hell – and a lot of pressure was put on me to help “save them”. I worried about them – A LOT. Looking back… it was so manipulative and ABUSIVE of my mother and other “Christians” to put me in that spot. It makes me very angry with them when I think about it. I know that THEY thought the were right, and being honest with me – but, I don’t see how anyone can NOT realize how cruel that is at the same time to a child.

My father told me he wasn’t going to hell. I wanted to believe him. Eventually, I did. Thankfully.

I lurk 90%, but I’m just dropping by to drop a few words of encouragement and thanks. I’m somebody who de-converted years ago and still haven’t “come out” to my family, though they probably have strong suspicions.

Anyway, I look forward to the day that they will engage with me as far as your Dad has with you, but I doubt I will invest the effort soon. Your experience gives me a taste of both the costs as well as the rewards of doing so. And it may indeed hasten that day. Thanks for sharing!

@ Joe (since I’m temporarily de-lurking anyway)

Thank you for your consistently (persistently?) respectful and open minded tone. I wouldn’t reply if you had been anything but sensitive, namely because I would’ve felt my argument would fall on deaf ears. So, please see this as constructive. For my part, I have one gripe about one assumption that you seem to be making. You seem to casually assume an equivalence of “belief” and “lack of belief”. I realize in reading you in this and other posts that you may not realize that you are implicitly making this equivalence. But it may come off as extremely condescending, and I doubt that is your intended goal.

Joshua’s (and my) lack of belief in Christ as such is no different than your lack of belief in Ma-tsu. Certainly Joshua and I are intimately acquainted with some of the details of Christ belief and you are unlikely to be acquainted with Taiwanese/Fujianese sea goddesses. But in all other respects, they are very much parallel. It is the theist that is making the extraordinary claim, whether they be Hindu theists or Abrahamic theists, et cetera. The burden of proof for any claim is on the person making the positive claim.

You have (perhaps unconsciously) reversed or at least shared the burden of proof and implied that presence/absence of god/soul/etc. are claims of equal stature. And in doing so you ask Joshua to treat his lack of belief in a soul (for one example) as perfectly symmetrical to your belief in a soul, despite the absence of evidence for a soul. Indeed, the soul is sometimes defined as to preclude the possibility of ever adducing evidence.

I dare say you agree with me unless you consider belief in Santa Claus or elves as reasonable as belief in Allah or Krishna. To attune your sensitivity to this asymmetry that you appear not to recognize, I’ve highlighted a few below:

#21 “It’s kind of interesting to hear stories coming from the other end of the spectrum. [...] The Untouchables are embracing Christianity as they see clearly that the caste system is a lie, and that all men equally have a chance to be saved.

But one normally doesn’t think of the other side of the coin where someone from a Christian family becomes an atheist, or embraces another faith, and faces ostracism also. That is very enlightening.”

Here you suggest that exchanging one supernatural claim for another (Hindu -> Christian) is the same as de-converting from one supernatural claim (Christian -> ∅). In the first example, there are similar burdens for Hindu and Christian beliefs. And indeed, both belief systems seem to lack empirical support to similar degrees. In the second case, as there is no burden of proof for an absence of belief, a Christian really must do the heavy lifting. This issue need not be brought to Spaghetti Monster-level theology to get that point across does it?

#49 “I mentioned before that it took a long time for me to realize that many people on this blog REALLY don’t believe any more. I didn’t want to accept that fact for a very long time. I thought many were just in denial, but still believed.”

Is it really so hard to believe? After all, don’t you readily accept that Buddhists lack a belief in the divinity of Christ? Do you not lack a belief in Ma-tsu? Are you surprised that Muslims don’t seek salvation through Christ? I could understand how you would find it incredible that anyone believes in Ma-tsu or Allah or whatever, as I agree. But to find lack in a belief in Christ surprising, even from a de-convert? That exposes the bias I’m talking about.

#54 “There was a Twilight Zone episode where this man says “Why can’t everyone just be like me? Why can’t they think like me?” He saw people as cattle, on a bit lower plane than he was in his elite understanding of things. I was reminded of the episode Josh when you said “why can’t they accept new evidence and change their beliefs”?”

This post is what encouraged me to write this section of my post in the first place. In short: It is the believers imposing their beliefs on others.

Everyone is born an atheist and only comes to a particular belief upon indoctrination. How many Koreans or Chinese adopted into Christian homes become Buddhist versus those raised by their genetic parents in Buddhist households? Joshua communicating to his Dad the idea that it is the THEIST that is imposing their ideas on others does not constitute a spreading of his own view in the way that you assert. In general, it is merely requesting that the theists bear the burden of proof that is rightfully theirs. Of course, Joshua may go further with his Dad, but I very seriously doubt he is doing anything more than challenging the veracity of Christianity on evidentiary or philosophical grounds using exactly the same types of thinking as he’d use if he were falsifying any issue in science. It isn’t as if Joshua has an atheistic doctrine.

Post #57 in its entirety

The person who makes a positive claim is the one that bears the burden of showing it. By claiming something is “supernatural” or “beyond observation” is shirking that burden.

#59 “One cannot call someone stupid for thinking or believing there is a soul. In my opinion you are calling them stupid because they don’t agree with YOU, not with established fact.”

Theists make claim of a fact and then clothe it in language like “ineffable” or “supernatural” or “divine” etc. An absence of such belief is the default state, not a claim of established fact.