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	<title>Comments on: The Intelli gent ly Designed Post</title>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Eve's Apple</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/12/21/the-intelli-gent-ly-designed-post/#comment-40307</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eve's Apple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 22:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3523#comment-40307</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, the problem with the &quot;fallen world&quot; answer, is that if I understand correctly, God pretty much had finished creating everything by the sixth day (Genesis 1) or after he created the woman (Genesis 2).  So, either all these &quot;nasty things&quot; were in the world BEFORE the Fall (but inactive), or God did some more creating AFTER the fall, and I don&#039;t think the text supports either hypothesis.  I mean, isn&#039;t that the heart of the creation/evolution debate?

In the Roman Catholic tradition in which I was raised, whenever Genesis was discussed it was pretty much assumed that God had stopped creating after he created Adam and Eve.  On the other hahd, evolution hasn&#039;t been as much of a battleground in Catholicism as it has been in other churches; the way I understood it is that Catholics are free to make up their own minds about it.  So a Catholic answer might be that the initial creation was good but that after the Fall evolution started taking a twisted course, resulting in nasties like the guinea worm.  I am just speculating here.  

For a fundie/creationist/ID&#039;er, that answer  is not an option.  If you use &quot;After the Fall&quot; for an answer then you open yourself wide open to the charge of promoting a particular religion in a public school.  And Genesis clearly states that when God finished his creation he said that it was good.  All of it.  And yet there are things out there that very few people in their right minds would say are good.  Look at all the effort spent in eradicating smallpox. 

Frankly, I don&#039;t think the creationist/ID folks have thought it through.  If they get their way in teaching Genesis as science they are opening themselves wide up for questions like &quot;what about the guinea worm?&quot;  We&#039;ve all heard stories about the smart-aleck kid in Sunday school who asks questions the teacher can&#039;t answer--heck, some of us were that kid ourselves--do the creationist/ID people really want to be exposed to that the rest of the week?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the problem with the &#8220;fallen world&#8221; answer, is that if I understand correctly, God pretty much had finished creating everything by the sixth day (Genesis 1) or after he created the woman (Genesis 2).  So, either all these &#8220;nasty things&#8221; were in the world BEFORE the Fall (but inactive), or God did some more creating AFTER the fall, and I don&#8217;t think the text supports either hypothesis.  I mean, isn&#8217;t that the heart of the creation/evolution debate?</p>
<p>In the Roman Catholic tradition in which I was raised, whenever Genesis was discussed it was pretty much assumed that God had stopped creating after he created Adam and Eve.  On the other hahd, evolution hasn&#8217;t been as much of a battleground in Catholicism as it has been in other churches; the way I understood it is that Catholics are free to make up their own minds about it.  So a Catholic answer might be that the initial creation was good but that after the Fall evolution started taking a twisted course, resulting in nasties like the guinea worm.  I am just speculating here.  </p>
<p>For a fundie/creationist/ID&#8217;er, that answer  is not an option.  If you use &#8220;After the Fall&#8221; for an answer then you open yourself wide open to the charge of promoting a particular religion in a public school.  And Genesis clearly states that when God finished his creation he said that it was good.  All of it.  And yet there are things out there that very few people in their right minds would say are good.  Look at all the effort spent in eradicating smallpox. </p>
<p>Frankly, I don&#8217;t think the creationist/ID folks have thought it through.  If they get their way in teaching Genesis as science they are opening themselves wide up for questions like &#8220;what about the guinea worm?&#8221;  We&#8217;ve all heard stories about the smart-aleck kid in Sunday school who asks questions the teacher can&#8217;t answer&#8211;heck, some of us were that kid ourselves&#8211;do the creationist/ID people really want to be exposed to that the rest of the week?</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/12/21/the-intelli-gent-ly-designed-post/#comment-40297</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3523#comment-40297</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[paleale--(#4)--

The Mormons (when you really dig into what they believe) do believe in a &quot;council of gods&quot; from which Jehovah came. So there is one group that does believe in possible multiple designers. In fact, Joshua&#039;s article above sounds a bit like it could have been written by Joseph Smith (Mormonism&#039;s founder).  :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>paleale&#8211;(#4)&#8211;</p>
<p>The Mormons (when you really dig into what they believe) do believe in a &#8220;council of gods&#8221; from which Jehovah came. So there is one group that does believe in possible multiple designers. In fact, Joshua&#8217;s article above sounds a bit like it could have been written by Joseph Smith (Mormonism&#8217;s founder).  <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: 4riozs</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/12/21/the-intelli-gent-ly-designed-post/#comment-40295</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[4riozs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:16:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3523#comment-40295</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was always told that when &quot;sin&quot; entered the world that everything that is bad also came about, that  being thorns, illness, and bugs. I have never seen this in the Bible though. But that is the response you might get regarding &quot;guinea worms&quot;. 

Or maybe the worm was made to bring about &quot;justice&quot;, Christians love to throw that around, &quot;bad things happen to bad people&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was always told that when &#8220;sin&#8221; entered the world that everything that is bad also came about, that  being thorns, illness, and bugs. I have never seen this in the Bible though. But that is the response you might get regarding &#8220;guinea worms&#8221;. </p>
<p>Or maybe the worm was made to bring about &#8220;justice&#8221;, Christians love to throw that around, &#8220;bad things happen to bad people&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: LeoPardus</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/12/21/the-intelli-gent-ly-designed-post/#comment-40293</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LeoPardus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 18:07:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3523#comment-40293</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;So, how does Intelligent Design account for something like the guinea worm?&lt;/i&gt;

Gosh, that&#039;s easy. We&#039;re in a fallen world. Adam and Eve are from some tree they weren&#039;t supposed to, so now everything&#039;s screwed up.  

This probably also explains why the loving designer (who is perfect BTW) made us so poorly. Prone to multiple breakdowns; lots of inefficient systems; etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>So, how does Intelligent Design account for something like the guinea worm?</i></p>
<p>Gosh, that&#8217;s easy. We&#8217;re in a fallen world. Adam and Eve are from some tree they weren&#8217;t supposed to, so now everything&#8217;s screwed up.  </p>
<p>This probably also explains why the loving designer (who is perfect BTW) made us so poorly. Prone to multiple breakdowns; lots of inefficient systems; etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Ubi Dubium</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/12/21/the-intelli-gent-ly-designed-post/#comment-40289</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ubi Dubium]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 03:28:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3523#comment-40289</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Congratulations, you&#039;ve discovered evidence of the true creator god, the Flying Spaghetti Monster! (Pesto be upon him!)  His noodliness is usually drunk, not very bright, but really appreciates a good practical joke. That pretty much explains everything in the universe right there, including the propensity for people to invent gods who make no sense.  Since all religions are ridiculous anyway, join the Pastafarians!  Dress like a Pirate, drink grog, eat noodles, enjoy our flimsy moral values, and then get to go to our heaven, which has a beer volcano and a stripper factory!  You can&#039;t prove it isn&#039;t true, so you might as well believe it, right? :)

May you be Touched by His Noodly Appendage.  RAmen.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Congratulations, you&#8217;ve discovered evidence of the true creator god, the Flying Spaghetti Monster! (Pesto be upon him!)  His noodliness is usually drunk, not very bright, but really appreciates a good practical joke. That pretty much explains everything in the universe right there, including the propensity for people to invent gods who make no sense.  Since all religions are ridiculous anyway, join the Pastafarians!  Dress like a Pirate, drink grog, eat noodles, enjoy our flimsy moral values, and then get to go to our heaven, which has a beer volcano and a stripper factory!  You can&#8217;t prove it isn&#8217;t true, so you might as well believe it, right? <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>May you be Touched by His Noodly Appendage.  RAmen.</p>
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		<title>By: cicely</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/12/21/the-intelli-gent-ly-designed-post/#comment-40286</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cicely]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 02:05:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3523#comment-40286</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s intelligently-designed gods all the way down.

:D]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s intelligently-designed gods all the way down.<br />
 <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: kerrin</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/12/21/the-intelli-gent-ly-designed-post/#comment-40285</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kerrin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 01:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3523#comment-40285</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[4riozs,

Yes, Ehrman is correct in that the majority of early Christians were, purportedly, poorer and uneducated. Robert Wrights&#039; book tells of the logistics of where these early Christians met and Paul&#039;s attempt to administrate these home meetings. The only places homes large enough to house these early Christians would have been the traveling merchants.

In the book of Acts &quot;a certain woman named Lydia&quot; would be a case in point. She was a wealthy merchant; purple cloth was an expensive fabric (made with rare dye). Hers was, according to Acts, one of first house churches. Aquila and Priscilla are another example of wealthy a merchants&#039; home where Paul set up his franchising.

I&#039;ll check out that book. Thanks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>4riozs,</p>
<p>Yes, Ehrman is correct in that the majority of early Christians were, purportedly, poorer and uneducated. Robert Wrights&#8217; book tells of the logistics of where these early Christians met and Paul&#8217;s attempt to administrate these home meetings. The only places homes large enough to house these early Christians would have been the traveling merchants.</p>
<p>In the book of Acts &#8220;a certain woman named Lydia&#8221; would be a case in point. She was a wealthy merchant; purple cloth was an expensive fabric (made with rare dye). Hers was, according to Acts, one of first house churches. Aquila and Priscilla are another example of wealthy a merchants&#8217; home where Paul set up his franchising.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll check out that book. Thanks.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: 4riozs</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/12/21/the-intelli-gent-ly-designed-post/#comment-40283</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[4riozs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 01:39:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3523#comment-40283</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Josh, 
I laughed so hard reading your entry- I&#039;m working and almost laughed in the middle of a sales call. I love it!!! I have thought about &quot;God&#039;s Designer&quot; since I was 5 years old, I used to pray that &quot;God&quot; would tell me who made him so I could also talk to that person- lol.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh,<br />
I laughed so hard reading your entry- I&#8217;m working and almost laughed in the middle of a sales call. I love it!!! I have thought about &#8220;God&#8217;s Designer&#8221; since I was 5 years old, I used to pray that &#8220;God&#8221; would tell me who made him so I could also talk to that person- lol.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: 4riozs</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/12/21/the-intelli-gent-ly-designed-post/#comment-40282</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[4riozs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 01:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3523#comment-40282</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kerrin-
Your book sounds much like &quot;A HIstory of God&quot;, it&#039;s by a female author who was a nun and the book is about the three major religions christianity, judaism, and islam- i havent finished it but it talks about polytheism being the primitive religious genre. 

Though I am confused, you say your book says Pauls &quot;religion&quot;
was for the wealthy merchants- according to Bart Ehrman the first Christians were of a poorer uneducated class? I will check out your book- sounds equally interesting.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kerrin-<br />
Your book sounds much like &#8220;A HIstory of God&#8221;, it&#8217;s by a female author who was a nun and the book is about the three major religions christianity, judaism, and islam- i havent finished it but it talks about polytheism being the primitive religious genre. </p>
<p>Though I am confused, you say your book says Pauls &#8220;religion&#8221;<br />
was for the wealthy merchants- according to Bart Ehrman the first Christians were of a poorer uneducated class? I will check out your book- sounds equally interesting.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: kerrin</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2009/12/21/the-intelli-gent-ly-designed-post/#comment-40281</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kerrin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 01:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/?p=3523#comment-40281</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Have you read The Evolution of God by Robert Wright? He uses &#039;facts on the ground&#039;: evidence from archeological digs, our modern understanding of the human psyche, and such to posit that humans began with a primordial faith as polytheist. He then shows, starting with ancient Israel, how polytheism transitioned to Monolatry; and Monolatry to Monotheism; then the &quot;invention of Christianity.&quot; He shows how social and economic facts on the ground were likely significant influences for Paul&#039;s writing: he was primarily trying to administrate this &quot;newly formed&quot; faith, which gathered in the homes of wealthy merchants.

Fascinating, well researched, and thought provoking.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you read The Evolution of God by Robert Wright? He uses &#8216;facts on the ground&#8217;: evidence from archeological digs, our modern understanding of the human psyche, and such to posit that humans began with a primordial faith as polytheist. He then shows, starting with ancient Israel, how polytheism transitioned to Monolatry; and Monolatry to Monotheism; then the &#8220;invention of Christianity.&#8221; He shows how social and economic facts on the ground were likely significant influences for Paul&#8217;s writing: he was primarily trying to administrate this &#8220;newly formed&#8221; faith, which gathered in the homes of wealthy merchants.</p>
<p>Fascinating, well researched, and thought provoking.</p>
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